[APWG] Altering is too kind, destroy not strong enough

[Gena Fleming]

Dear All:

We absolutely must have a sense of values, of "good" and "bad".    The
objectivity of science is a deeply ingrained myth.  Yes, modern day science
has thrown off the shackles of religious doctrine.  But in the vacuum
created by undeclared beliefs, other motives and vested interests have been
happy to grab the rudder and guide the science boat through selective,
directional funding of scientific research.

This discussion is going round and round and will continue to go round until
we find a way to articulate what our underlying presumptions and values
are.

Do we really think that divesting ourselves of values is going to lead to a
better world?  The path of objectivity is not to deny our value-laden
beliefs:  it is to declare them openly and thereby make them open to
scrutiny, discussion, and refinement.

Such is the basic principle underlying any philosophic discussion of
integrity.

When premises are not up for discussion, we leave philosophy and enter
theology.

When premises are consistently claimed to be non-existent, we have  theology
mixed with mental illness.

I do not believe the scientists in this discussion are objective.  At least
I hope they're not!

For me,  the question is not "Which plant/organism is the enemy?"
Rather, the question is ---- how can we harmonize human interaction with
plants for the sake of agriculture and other human needs with the inherent
biologic resilience, integrity, wisdom and safeguards offered by wildness?

best regards,

Gena



On 04/03/2008, Chang, David <dchang at co.santa-barbara.ca.us>             Bob:
>
>
>
> I concede that neutral language is more scientific and objective, but did
> we catch you in a Freudian slip?
>
> Your statement, "Although this article is not good news," contradicts your
> usual stance.  Are we, conservation and biodiversity freaks, getting through
> to you?
>
>
>
> A partial rebuttal to your argument below is that humans aren't the only
> judges of ecosystems.
>
>
>
> David
>
>
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>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org [mailto:
> apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Bob Beyfuss
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:22 PM
> To: Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company;
> apwg at lists.plantconservation.org
> Subject: Re: [APWG] Altering is too kind, destroy not strong enough
>
>
>
> Hi Craig and all,
>
> Replaced is the correct term.
>
> Destroying implies a value judgment that the invasive plants are "bad" and
>
>
> the plants that they are replacing are "good". In science there are no
>
> "good" or "bad" plants as there are no "good" or "bad" ecosystems. Nature
>
> lovers may not like or may not find attractive the ecosystems that occur,
>
> for example, in a vacant lot in an inner city but that does not make those
>
>
> ecosystems "bad'. There are particular ecosystems that humans want to
>
> protect for many reasons and that is fine but these are human value
>
> judgements. If a scientist studying any particular ecosystem did not know
>
> ahead of time that it was dominated by invasive, exotic plants, it would
> be
>
> impossible for he or she to determine if the plants present on site were
>
> native or exotic based on the biology of the plants and their
>
> interactions.  Let me cite a real life example to make my point. A few
>
> weeks ago a client called me looking for information on how to eradicate
>
> invasive, Asiatic bittersweet that she had found on her property.  I asked
>
>
> her if she was certain that it was the Asiatic variety and not the native
>
> bittersweet. She replied that she no idea how to distinguish them. I asked
>
>
> her if it turned out that the bittersweet on her property were the native
>
> variety, would she still want to eradicate it? Her answer was "of course
>
> not". Her only criteria for wanting to eradicate the plant was the
>
> supposition that it was exotic. In my mind that is not a good reason to
>
> eradicate anything, especaill\y when there are no guarantees that the
>
> plants eradicated will not be replaced by something even less desirable.
>
> When science is reduced  to name calling to provoke an emotional response,
>
>
> it is not science.
>
> Bob
>
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>
> At 03:13 PM 3/4/2008, Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company wrote:
>
> >Dear All,
>
> >
>
> >I am very surpised to read the discussions on the semantics, of what to
>
> >call exotic plants and their impacts on local native ecosystems.
>
> >
>
> >I can only speak from the California perspective, where 99% of the
>
> >understory of our native ecosystems between 2 and 2,000 feet elevation,
>
> >have been replaced by over 1,000 species of exotic plants.
>
> >
>
> >What do you call that effect, using words that express such a complete
>
> >extermination of native ecosystems, within only 150 years or less?
>
> >
>
> >Ecosystem genocide?  Permanent native vegetation extinction, continuing
>
> >through geologic time?
>
> >
>
> >Sincerely,  Craig Dremann (650) 325-7333
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >_______________________________________________
>
> >PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list
>
> >APWG at lists.plantconservation.org
>
> >
> http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org
>
> >
>
> >Disclaimer
>
> >Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the
>
> >opinion of the individual posting the message.
>
>
>
> Bob Beyfuss wrote:
>
> > Although this article is not good news, it is refreshing for me to see
>
> > the term "altering" instead of "destroying" "devastating" and other
>
> > pejorative terms.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
>
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>
>
>
> Disclaimer
>
> Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the
> opinion of the individual posting the message.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list
> APWG at lists.plantconservation.org
>
> http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org
>
> Disclaimer
> Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the
> opinion of the individual posting the message.
>



-- 
Gena Fleming, MS, LAc
www.plantbyplant.com
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