<div>Dear All:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>We absolutely must have a sense of values, of "good" and "bad". The objectivity of science is a deeply ingrained myth. Yes, modern day science has thrown off the shackles of religious doctrine. But in the vacuum created by undeclared beliefs, other motives and vested interests have been happy to grab the rudder and guide the science boat through selective, directional funding of scientific research.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>This discussion is going round and round and will continue to go round until we find a way to articulate what our underlying presumptions and values are. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Do we really think that divesting ourselves of values is going to lead to a better world? The path of objectivity is not to deny our value-laden beliefs: it is to declare them openly and thereby make them open to scrutiny, discussion, and refinement. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Such is the basic principle underlying any philosophic discussion of integrity. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>When premises are not up for discussion, we leave philosophy and enter theology.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>When premises are consistently claimed to be non-existent, we have theology mixed with mental illness. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I do not believe the scientists in this discussion are objective. At least I hope they're not! </div>
<div> </div>
<div>For me, the question is not "Which plant/organism is the enemy?" Rather, the question is ---- how can we harmonize human interaction with plants for the sake of agriculture and other human needs with the inherent biologic resilience, integrity, wisdom and safeguards offered by wildness?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>best regards,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Gena</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 04/03/2008, <b class="gmail_sendername">Chang, David</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:dchang@co.santa-barbara.ca.us" target="_blank">dchang@co.santa-barbara.ca.us</a>> </span><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bob:</span></font>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
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<div>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I concede that neutral language is more scientific and objective, but did we catch you in a Freudian slip? </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Your statement, "Although this article is not good news," contradicts your usual stance. Are we, conservation and biodiversity freaks, getting through to you?</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">A partial rebuttal to your argument below is that humans aren't the only judges of ecosystems. </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">David</span></font></p><span>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a> [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>] On Behalf Of Bob Beyfuss<br>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:22 PM<br>To: Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company; <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [APWG] Altering is too kind, destroy not strong enough</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p></span>
<div><span>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi Craig and all,</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Replaced is the correct term.</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Destroying implies a value judgment that the invasive plants are "bad" and </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">the plants that they are replacing are "good". In science there are no </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">"good" or "bad" plants as there are no "good" or "bad" ecosystems. Nature </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">lovers may not like or may not find attractive the ecosystems that occur, </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">for example, in a vacant lot in an inner city but that does not make those </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ecosystems "bad'. There are particular ecosystems that humans want to </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">protect for many reasons and that is fine but these are human value </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">judgements. If a scientist studying any particular ecosystem did not know </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ahead of time that it was dominated by invasive, exotic plants, it would be </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">impossible for he or she to determine if the plants present on site were </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">native or exotic based on the biology of the plants and their </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">interactions. Let me cite a real life example to make my point. A few </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">weeks ago a client called me looking for information on how to eradicate </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">invasive, Asiatic bittersweet that she had found on her property. I asked </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">her if she was certain that it was the Asiatic variety and not the native </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">bittersweet. She replied that she no idea how to distinguish them. I asked </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">her if it turned out that the bittersweet on her property were the native </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">variety, would she still want to eradicate it? Her answer was "of course </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">not". Her only criteria for wanting to eradicate the plant was the </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">supposition that it was exotic. In my mind that is not a good reason to </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">eradicate anything, especaill\y when there are no guarantees that the </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">plants eradicated will not be replaced by something even less desirable. </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">When science is reduced to name calling to provoke an emotional response, </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">it is not science.</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bob</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">At 03:13 PM 3/4/2008, Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company wrote:</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Dear All,</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>I am very surpised to read the discussions on the semantics, of what to</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>call exotic plants and their impacts on local native ecosystems.</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>I can only speak from the California perspective, where 99% of the</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>understory of our native ecosystems between 2 and 2,000 feet elevation,</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>have been replaced by over 1,000 species of exotic plants.</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>What do you call that effect, using words that express such a complete</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>extermination of native ecosystems, within only 150 years or less?</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Ecosystem genocide? Permanent native vegetation extinction, continuing</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>through geologic time?</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Sincerely, Craig Dremann (650) 325-7333</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>_______________________________________________</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Disclaimer</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>opinion of the individual posting the message.</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p></span></div>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bob Beyfuss wrote:</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> Although this article is not good news, it is refreshing for me to see </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> the term "altering" instead of "destroying" "devastating" and other </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> pejorative terms.</span></font></p><span>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_______________________________________________</span></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Disclaimer </span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </span></font></p></span></div></div><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
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<br>Disclaimer<br>Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the opinion of the individual posting the message.<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Gena Fleming, MS, LAc<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.plantbyplant.com/" target="_blank">www.plantbyplant.com</a>