[MPWG] ginseng poaching program

[Christine Mitchell]

Dear all,

I have been lurking on the list for some time, and have hesitated writing in the past. 

I am a geographer, a political ecologist (somewhat like Eric) and we both have or do study non timber forest products. I am finishing my PhD on the medicinal plant – saw palmetto – from a PE perspective. I wish I had the funding to do more, such as compare this industry with that of the ginseng industry. 

I do not have a lot to add to this discussion as I have not really studied ginseng, or participated in the industry. Having said that, I do have many years of research under my belt in understanding the issues related to wild products and medicinal plants in the US, the US South, and around the world. 

I watched the show that started this discussion, and it is disturbing to me on several levels.

The first is, of course, the glorification of illegal activities. That is just plain immoral and wrong, and as someone wrote, would they do this with the poaching of animals such as rhinos? 

The second is that I feel the industry itself must take a step back and take stock as a group and determine for itself how to cope with poaching: what can be done, how , etc. 

As to the why of why people poach, I don’t think it is hard to understand. 1: Money. 2: they know (mostly) how to identify the plant 3: where to find it 4: happy to risk getting caught but don’t think they will (much of my saw palmetto berry research speaks to who and why and it may be similar to ginseng).

I think it is increasingly important in this age of technology that provides cell phones with GPS, GPS itself, lots of roads, automobiles, social networks, etc (all of which likely make traditional local knowledge and practices increasingly less important), that those who care about the sustainability of ginseng (or other in demand plant products from the wild) harvesting think outside the box about how to structure the industry – before regulations from above do it (and probably not well). 

I think there are ways to do it, but I won’t presume to make suggestions for those involved as I am truly an ‘outsider’ in this. 

I do want to point out something, though. 

There is a limited, and decreasing supply of this resource. 

There is an unlimited and increasing demand on this resource. 

Therefore, any kind of control of harvesting practices and commodity chains may just have to take this into account accordingly.  

Honestly, it may come down to saying: We have x amount of pounds available this year, period. How much do you want to pay for (a percentage?) of it?  

Less ginseng can make harvesters in the US more money, rather than less, while perhaps simultaneously increasing control of where it comes from (mostly).  Just an observation.

I think this is an incredibly important topic, and I would welcome anyone’s ideas about how to deal with the poaching problem.

I would also REALLY welcome personal communication from anyone who has ever been, or is involved in the SP Berry business. Though I am wrapping up my dissertation, the more folks I talk to, the better the insight. Ginseng and SP Berries have many commonalities, and I wish I had had the opportunity to compare both. 

Best,

Christine Mitchell

PhD Student in Geosciences at FAU

Please email me for my phone number if you would like to talk about SP Berries and/or Ginseng…

 

From: MPWG [mailto:mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Colin M Donohue
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 2:16 PM
To: mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program

 


I wonder if Eric Jones is on this list, these days.   These issues of WHO is involved in NTFP harvest, what their motivations are, how they operate, etc. is basically 
a call for social science research (anthropology probably as much as anything else). 

I agree that it's important to understand the motivations etc. 

To some degree there are predictable "drivers", also.  If we can assume that money is some motivation, and the risk of getting caught stealing or digging out of season was greater than the reward, we could jigger the levers from an economic perspective. 

There are as many motivations and mindsets as there are people. We can map out patterns, or drill deeper into perspectives/motivations with ethnography and other social science tools. 

I don't think that discounts looking at the "coarse grain" elements of the system such as financial motivation/ "cost/benefit" for folks in the system.  The diggers may have "nothing to lose" as individuals. The buyers typically have more to lose.  That may be an element in this. 

No "solution" just reflections...

On 1/15/2014 2:09 PM, MoonBranch Botanicals wrote:





Hello Ed, I didn’t get your reply until late last night as I was out re-engineering for the third or fourth night now a support for a tarp cover over an outside workspace. Looks like after today’s work is done it will be night five, which will be interesting considering the weather forecast!

 

At any rate, I had written a response that I had saved as a draft rather than sending because I wanted to review it with renewed mental clarity before I did so.  I am glad that I did.

 

So, on to the task at hand. You know, sometimes when working on a project like that tarp outside I often use a set of tools for the work. I have all kinds of tools (some of which I couldn’t begin to find even) and seem to have a certain set that I regularly rely on. Those are kept handily in a tool box. I have used that same set over and over for so long that occasionally come up against a problem that I don’t seem to have the proper tool to handle and wind up thinking to myself “If I only had a tool for that!”. Thing is, months later I’ll be cleaning or searching for something else and stumble upon that very tool I had needed before but didn’t even realize that I had because I had never used it.

 

I use this tool example to illustrate what I believe to be a stumbling block at times for us humans. Oftentimes I see that we use the same “tools”, be they a process, a system, a methodology or even just a way of thinking for so long that we forget all the other “tools” at our disposal. We truly must be “creatures of habit”.

 

Sometimes I find that in order to look at things objectively and clearly, one may have to step outside the boundaries of that which they believe to be “real”. In terms of solutions regarding the ginseng poaching dilemma, I suspect there are as many solutions as there are stars in the night sky. Trouble is, as with the tool example, we will never find them if we don’t look. And, we will never look if we do not believe that they are there.

 

Thinking back to my response to you from last night that I had saved as a draft and when I contrast it with the current response I realize that, in terms of their nature, I have gone from non-specific to vague. There is a reason.

 

When analyzing the parameters of any project, task at hand or issue and assessing what “tools” are needed to do the job, it may first be wise to understand exactly what “went wrong” with or became broken in that which needs fixing. That said, I believe that a wise place to “start” might be at the beginning.

 

Keeping that in mind I find myself returning to the question of “why?”. Why do people poach ginseng? Are they just bad people? Are they common thieves?  Are they deranged in-bred white trash rednecks hell bent on wiping out a species? What? You tell me…… Do you know? Does anybody know? If so I would love an answer there. And, if we find, as I suspect, that no one really knows, then don’t you think it wise that we find out? In the process, I also suspect that we’ll discover about ourselves if we really want to save a species from peril or conversely, do we really just want to go through a known, comfortable and expected process.

 

So with that I will end at a beginning. In searching for a “why” I would ask each of you to consider the following. I have heard it said many times that in order to love, one must first love oneself. With that in mind is it really logical to assume that one species which shows little respect, love or compassion for its own be expected to show the same for another species?

 

Can someone please speak to this?

 

- Robin

-----Original Message----- 
From: Edward Fletcher 
Sent: Jan 14, 2014 10:30 PM 
To: 'MoonBranch Botanicals' , 'Roy Upton' 
Cc: mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org, 'Ikhlas Khan' , 'Stefan Gafner' , 'Mark Blumenthal' 
Subject: RE: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program 




Robin,

 

Glad you decided to chime in. 

 

Points well taken and realized/considered.

 

Now what are your solutions?


Genuinely,
Edward J. Fletcher    
Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
Botanical Division, C.O.O.
828.898.7642
Fax.898.7647
Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net
www.StrategicSourcingInc.net

-----Original Message-----
From: "MoonBranch Botanicals"  <mailto:moonbranch at earthlink.net> <moonbranch at earthlink.net> 
Sent: 1/14/2014 8:35 PM 
To: "Roy Upton"  <mailto:herbal at got.net> <herbal at got.net>; "Edward Fletcher"  <mailto:efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net> <efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net> 
Cc:  <mailto:mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org> "mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org"  <mailto:mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org> <mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org>; "Ikhlas Khan"  <mailto:ikhan at olemiss.edu> <ikhan at olemiss.edu>; "Stefan Gafner"  <mailto:stefan at herbalgram.org> <stefan at herbalgram.org>; "Mark Blumenthal"  <mailto:Mark at herbalgram.org> <Mark at herbalgram.org> 
Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program 

 





Okay, so I have to ask, are laws, permits and the authority to levy fines all representative of the best way to protect this resource? If the laws in place worked as intended, there should be more ginseng in the woods now than when the laws were enacted, correct? Is ginseng more plentiful now? Are the forests in better shape? From what I’m seeing and hearing the answer is “No”.

 

A saying widely attributed to Einstein reads “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”seems pretty appropriate to me! In my view prohibitions and negative reinforcements seldom result in the results intended. In fact history not only validates this but also points to the fact that the unintended consequences can be far worse than the original problem that the law was designed to solve.

 

Look, we humans just ain’t all that smart. There are far too many variables in this equation to adequately address this issue with some kind of centrally planned regulatory framework. I have yet to hear anyone pose the question pertaining to “Why” this poaching (if we call it that) occurs to begin with. Don’t you all think that would be a good place to start? Obviously the approach we’ve used is not working, are we really that afraid to envision a different solution? If so, we have bigger troubles than ginseng theft on our hands!

 

Already we live in the most heavily regulated and litigation oriented society that the planet has ever seen. Has crime disappeared yet? I didn’t think so…….

 

According to an article in the Wall Street Journal a few years back, (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842) Boston civil-liberties lawyer Harvey Silverglate in his book "Three Felonies a Day," refers to the number of crimes he estimates the average American now unwittingly commits. As ignorance is no excuse in breaking the law, and courts are no longer requiring proof of intent, these coupled with the growing militarization of law enforcement in the US, especially in rural areas, makes for a dangerous threat to our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

As this is being written, throughout the nation’s parklands and forests, the documented widespread use of surveillance equipment has eroded Fourth Amendment provisions for the personal privacy of those simply trying to enjoy the outdoors. Before we think about any new law, regulation or policy, we must consider the bleak dystopia so vividly presented by Orwell and ask: “Is this the world in which I want to live”? Plainly it is not the world our founders envisioned for this country!

 

- Robin

-----Original Message----- 
From: Roy Upton 
Sent: Jan 14, 2014 6:54 PM 
To: Edward Fletcher 
Cc: mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org, 'Ikhlas Khan' , 'Stefan Gafner' , 'Mark Blumenthal' 
Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program 

Then it sounds relatively easy to enforce. Fine for all illegally sourced root and that will discourage the practice. Unfortunately, it would likely require whistle blowing to the county or state. I would not want to do it; the consequences for individuals and families is pretty big; so not sure how one goes about addressing such things without third-party enforcement for the State itself. 

 

Roy

 

 

On Jan 14, 2014, at 3:47 PM, Edward Fletcher wrote:





Hello Roy,

 

Documenting by the dealers is a little different in each state, but at the least the dealer has to document from whom they buy the ginseng from, the date of purchase, the condition dry or fresh, the weight, the state and county where it was harvested. In North Carolina we have to also see their Drivers License and write their number down along with their address and ask for a phone number. So there is a very well documented paper trail for all purchases.

 

I agree there are rules in place and these need to be enforced & punished on the law breakers so those who harvest legally are not unduly punished.  


Genuinely,
Edward J. Fletcher    
Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
Botanical Division, C.O.O.
828.898.7642
Fax.898.7647
Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net
www.StrategicSourcingInc.net <http://www.StrategicSourcingInc.net/> 

-----Original Message-----
From: "herbal at got.net" <herbal at got.net> 
Sent: 1/12/2014 9:36 PM 
To: "Edward Fletcher" <efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net> 
Cc: "Jeanine Davis" <jeanine_davis at ncsu.edu>; "Ikhlas Khan" <ikhan at olemiss.edu>; "Mark Blumenthal" <Mark at herbalgram.org>; "Stefan Gafner" <stefan at herbalgram.org>; "mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org" <mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org> 
Subject: RE: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program 

 

Hi All,

Just thought I would add a few thoughts. As a number of folks have 
said, this film captures only a part of the wildcrafting story. 
Unfortunately,I do think it reflects a real part of the wildcrafting 
community, albeit not the whole wildcrafting community. The fact that 
the few gents shown represent a big part of the total tonnage of Amer 
ginseng that is collected is something worthy of acknowledging. That 
individual wildcrafters, such as the gent poaching on federal lands 
and the others on private property are trying to put food on their 
table and simply not caring about the environment or propriety of 
doing it in a sustainable way. The brokers and dealers also reflect a 
desire to "get every bit of it that is out there", put competitors out 
of business, and simply get their piece of the pie with no 
consciousness or caring. Cape cod fishermen are the same; they 
basically say they want to get what they can while they can and that 
is about it. This puts those wanting to do it the right way at a 
disadvantage, artificially drives costs up or down, and undermines 
efforts to promote a consciousness of sustainability. To me, for 
threatened species there should be a paper trail required for all 
those brokers, how much they got from who,e and document that all 
material harvested was done legally. The "disabled" guy clearly should 
be penalized just with the evidence this documentary provides; that he 
is probably collecting some type of disability while he has the 
ability to trek all over the Appalacians and his clear knowledge that 
he is doing it illegally. Unfortunately, all the education in the 
world will not stop folks like him from getting what they can, when 
they can, and however they can and threaten the entire tradition of 
wildcrafting. The only solution is to go after those types with 
penalties and also focus on the brokers of illegally obtained 
material. I expect documenting sources either is not part of the 
ginseng requirements for brokers or it is simply not enforced.

I am looking forward to the second segment, more hoping that the gent 
will be caught (never thought I would say something like that about a 
wildcrafter) and that there would be something good would come by 
deterring inappropriate non-sustainable practices.

Roy








On Sun Jan 12 18:12:13 2014, Edward Fletcher 
<efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net> wrote:

> This show sensationalizes the fringe element of the ginseng industry, NOT
> the true 'wild crafters' and long heritage of one of our American botanical
> treasures. But then why would 'they' want to make a show that depicts lawful
> and ethical people who are just trying to put shoes on their children's feet
> and food on the table....
>
> Just as Russ, I was shocked that they showed Actaea pachypoda and called it
> 'black cohosh'. This shows just how deep and thorough they researched their
> subject matter before filming! How can we make them retract and/or correct
> this possibly dangerous flagrant inaccuracy.
>
> Genuinely,
> Edward J. Fletcher
> Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
> Botanical Division, C.O.O.
> 828.898.7642
> Fax.898.7647
> Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net
> www.StrategicSourcingInc.net <http://www.StrategicSourcingInc.net/> 
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "MPWG" <mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org>
> Sent: 1/10/2014 4:47 PM
> To: "Jeanine Davis" <Jeanine_Davis at ncsu.edu>
> Cc: "Ikhlas Khan" <ikhan at olemiss.edu>; "Mark Blumenthal"
> <Mark at herbalgram.org>; "Stefan Gafner" <stefan at herbalgram.org>;
> "MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org" <MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org>
> Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program
>
>
>
> Very sobering. Like the fishermen in Cape Cod. No regard for the future, for
> the land, or for anything other than an instant buck. Very sad.--Roy
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Jeanine Davis wrote:
>
>
>
> This is all so frustrating. And it is discouraging forest landowners from
> planting wild-simulated ginseng because they are afraid with all this
> publicity it is in even greater danger of being poached. Jeanine
>
> Jeanine M. Davis, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor and Extension Specialist
> Dept. of Horticultural Science, NC State University
> Email: Jeanine_Davis at ncsu.edu <x-msg://157/Jeanine_Davis@ncsu.edu%20>
> Websites:  http://ncherb.org <http://ncherb.org/>  <http://ncherb.org/>
> http://ncspecialtycrops.org <http://ncspecialtycrops.org/>  <http://ncspecialtycrops.org/>
> http://ncorganic.org <http://ncorganic.org/>  <http://ncorganic.org/>
> Blog:  http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com <http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com/> 
> <http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com/>
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/JeanineNCSU
> Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeanine-Davis/1442912228>
> http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeanine-Davis/1442912228
> Address: Mtn. Hort. Crops Research & Extension Center
> 455 Research Drive, Mills River, NC 28759
> Phone:  828-684-3562   FAX:  828-684-8715
>
> From: MPWG [mailto:mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
> Susan Leopold
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:47 AM
> To: ForestRuss at aol.com
> Cc: MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org
> Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program
>
> Thank you Russ for pointing out the information of wrong identification,
> which sets the stage for the show and possibly more of its kind in the
> works. I personally think it is horrific to have a ginseng show that
> glorifies poaching and all the illegal activity that took place in this show
> to continue with no consequences.  If is was a show about poaching a
> protected animal I wonder how the public would react?
>
> I think this quote from the main ginseng dealers sums up how plants are
> perceived.. see quote and link below.
>
> UpS has released a formal press release warning the History Channel about
> the dangers of promoting poaching of a threatened species...
>
>  "its a protected species, but I don't know why. Its a plant'
> http://www.register-herald.com/local/x1956140531/New-reality-show-focuses-on
> -state-ginseng-business
> http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/12/25/new-reality-show-focuses-on-west-v
> irginia-ginseng-business/
>
> On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:19 AM, ForestRuss at aol.com wrote:
>
>
> MPWG:
>
> A new program had its debut on History Channel  yesterday 01/09/14 called
> "Appalachian Outlaws.
>
> The program appears to be more about the being a ginseng poacher than almost
> anything else and I am uncertain how it could impact ginseng
> growers...beyond making theft a thrill game.
>
> One concern I have as a long time grower of black Cohosh in a forest setting
> is that one of the poachers already has identified "dolls eye",  Actaea
> pachypoda, as black Cohosh, a very incorrect ID.  They made a point of
> showing the fruit and the foliage.
>
> As a grower of the medicinal black Cohosh plant I think that in 2014 black
> Cohosh root buyers might have to be more vigilant in vetting their purchases
> to make sure they aren't getting poison.
>
> I would appreciate other peoples' thoughts or comments on the program
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Russ Richardson, Certified Forester
>
>
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>
> Disclaimer
> Any advice given on this list regarding diagnosis or treatments etc.
> reflects ONLY the opinion of the individual who posts the message. The
> information contained in posts is not intended nor implied to be a
> substitute for professional medical advice relative to your specific medical
> condition or question. All medical and other healthcare information that is
> discussed on this list should be carefully reviewed by the individual reader
> and their qualified healthcare professional. Posts do not reflect any
> official opinions or positions of the Plant Conservation Alliance.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org
> http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/mpwg_lists.plantconserva
> tion.org
>
> To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to MPWG-request at lists.plantconservation.org
> with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
>
> Disclaimer
> Any advice given on this list regarding diagnosis or treatments etc.
> reflects ONLY the opinion of the individual who posts the message. The
> information contained in posts is not intended nor implied to be a
> substitute for professional medical advice relative to your specific medical
> condition or question. All medical and other healthcare information that is
> discussed on this list should be carefully reviewed by the individual reader
> and their qualified healthcare professional. Posts do not reflect any
> official opinions or positions of the Plant Conservation Alliance.
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>
>
>

 

“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.” 
 
Robin Alton Suggs
MoonBranch Botanicals
5294 Yellow Creek Road
Robbinsville, North Carolina 28771 
USA
 
Telephone: 828.479.2788
Email: moonbranch at earthlink.net
Websites:
www.moonbranch.com  &  www.localharvest.org/store/M16074
 
Member:
Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project; Farm Partner
Green Products Alliance 
North Carolina Consortium on Natural Medicines 
North Carolina Goodness Grows/NCDA&CS 
United Plant Savers
 
One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
- Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.
 
Civil disobedience becomes a sacred duty when the state becomes lawless or corrupt.
- Mahatma Gandhi
 
Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.
- Henry David Thoreau
 
It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.
- Samuel Adams
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.” 
 
Robin Alton Suggs
MoonBranch Botanicals
5294 Yellow Creek Road
Robbinsville, North Carolina 28771 
USA
 
Telephone: 828.479.2788
Email: moonbranch at earthlink.net
Websites:
www.moonbranch.com  &  www.localharvest.org/store/M16074
 
Member:
Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project; Farm Partner
Green Products Alliance 
North Carolina Consortium on Natural Medicines 
North Carolina Goodness Grows/NCDA&CS 
United Plant Savers
 
One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
- Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.
 
Civil disobedience becomes a sacred duty when the state becomes lawless or corrupt.
- Mahatma Gandhi
 
Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.
- Henry David Thoreau
 
It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.
- Samuel Adams
 
 
 
 
 
 






 
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MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org
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To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to MPWG-request at lists.plantconservation.org with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
 
Disclaimer
Any advice given on this list regarding diagnosis or treatments etc. reflects ONLY the opinion of the individual who posts the message. The information contained in posts is not intended nor implied to be a substitute for professional medical advice relative to your specific medical condition or question. All medical and other healthcare information that is discussed on this list should be carefully reviewed by the individual reader and their qualified healthcare professional. Posts do not reflect any official opinions or positions of the Plant Conservation Alliance.                                                    

 

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