[MPWG] ginseng poaching program

Tue Jan 14 21:30:02 CST 2014

Robin,

Glad you decided to chime in. 

Points well taken and realized/considered.

Now what are your solutions?

Genuinely,
Edward J. Fletcher    
Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
Botanical Division, C.O.O.
828.898.7642
Fax.898.7647
Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net
www.StrategicSourcingInc.net

-----Original Message-----
From: "MoonBranch Botanicals" <moonbranch at earthlink.net> 
Sent: 1/14/2014 8:35 PM 
To: "Roy Upton" <herbal at got.net>; "Edward Fletcher" <efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net> 
Cc: "mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org" <mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org>; "Ikhlas Khan" <ikhan at olemiss.edu>; "Stefan Gafner" <stefan at herbalgram.org>; "Mark Blumenthal" <Mark at herbalgram.org> 
Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program 

Okay, so I have to ask, are laws, permits and the authority to levy fines all representative of the best way to protect this resource? If the laws in place worked as intended, there should be more ginseng in the woods now than when the laws were enacted, correct? Is ginseng more plentiful now? Are the forests in better shape? From what Iâ€™m seeing and hearing the answer is â€œNoâ€.

A saying widely attributed to Einstein reads â€œInsanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different resultsâ€seems pretty appropriate to me! In my view prohibitions and negative reinforcements seldom result in the results intended. In fact history not only validates this but also points to the fact that the unintended consequences can be far worse than the original problem that the law was designed to solve.

Look, we humans just ainâ€™t all that smart. There are far too many variables in this equation to adequately address this issue with some kind of centrally planned regulatory framework. I have yet to hear anyone pose the question pertaining to â€œWhyâ€ this poaching (if we call it that) occurs to begin with. Donâ€™t you all think that would be a good place to start? Obviously the approach weâ€™ve used is not working, are we really that afraid to envision a different solution? If so, we have bigger troubles than ginseng theft on our hands!

Already we live in the most heavily regulated and litigation oriented society that the planet has ever seen. Has crime disappeared yet? I didnâ€™t think soâ€¦â€¦.

According to an article in the Wall Street Journal a few years back, (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842) Boston civil-liberties lawyer Harvey Silverglate in his book "Three Felonies a Day," refers to the number of crimes he estimates the average American now unwittingly commits. As ignorance is no excuse in breaking the law, and courts are no longer requiring proof of intent, these coupled with the growing militarization of law enforcement in the US, especially in rural areas, makes for a dangerous threat to our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

As this is being written, throughout the nationâ€™s parklands and forests, the documented widespread use of surveillance equipment has eroded Fourth Amendment provisions for the personal privacy of those simply trying to enjoy the outdoors. Before we think about any new law, regulation or policy, we must consider the bleak dystopia so vividly presented by Orwell and ask: â€œIs this the world in which I want to liveâ€? Plainly it is not the world our founders envisioned for this country!

- Robin

-----Original Message----- 
From: Roy Upton 
Sent: Jan 14, 2014 6:54 PM 
To: Edward Fletcher 
Cc: mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org, 'Ikhlas Khan' , 'Stefan Gafner' , 'Mark Blumenthal' 
Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program 

Then it sounds relatively easy to enforce. Fine for all illegally sourced root and that will discourage the practice. Unfortunately, it would likely require whistle blowing to the county or state. I would not want to do it; the consequences for individuals and families is pretty big; so not sure how one goes about addressing such things without third-party enforcement for the State itself. 

Roy

On Jan 14, 2014, at 3:47 PM, Edward Fletcher wrote:

Hello Roy,

Documenting by the dealers is a little different in each state, but at the least the dealer has to document from whom they buy the ginseng from, the date of purchase, the condition dry or fresh, the weight, the state and county where it was harvested. In North Carolina we have to also see their Drivers License and write their number down along with their address and ask for a phone number. So there is a very well documented paper trail for all purchases.

I agree there are rules in place and these need to be enforced & punished on the law breakers so those who harvest legally are not unduly punished.  

Genuinely,
Edward J. Fletcher    
Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
Botanical Division, C.O.O.
828.898.7642
Fax.898.7647
Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net
www.StrategicSourcingInc.net <http://www.StrategicSourcingInc.net/> 

-----Original Message-----
From: "herbal at got.net" <herbal at got.net> 
Sent: 1/12/2014 9:36 PM 
To: "Edward Fletcher" <efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net> 
Cc: "Jeanine Davis" <jeanine_davis at ncsu.edu>; "Ikhlas Khan" <ikhan at olemiss.edu>; "Mark Blumenthal" <Mark at herbalgram.org>; "Stefan Gafner" <stefan at herbalgram.org>; "mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org" <mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org> 
Subject: RE: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program 

Hi All,

Just thought I would add a few thoughts. As a number of folks have 
said, this film captures only a part of the wildcrafting story. 
Unfortunately,I do think it reflects a real part of the wildcrafting 
community, albeit not the whole wildcrafting community. The fact that 
the few gents shown represent a big part of the total tonnage of Amer 
ginseng that is collected is something worthy of acknowledging. That 
individual wildcrafters, such as the gent poaching on federal lands 
and the others on private property are trying to put food on their 
table and simply not caring about the environment or propriety of 
doing it in a sustainable way. The brokers and dealers also reflect a 
desire to "get every bit of it that is out there", put competitors out 
of business, and simply get their piece of the pie with no 
consciousness or caring. Cape cod fishermen are the same; they 
basically say they want to get what they can while they can and that 
is about it. This puts those wanting to do it the right way at a 
disadvantage, artificially drives costs up or down, and undermines 
efforts to promote a consciousness of sustainability. To me, for 
threatened species there should be a paper trail required for all 
those brokers, how much they got from who,e and document that all 
material harvested was done legally. The "disabled" guy clearly should 
be penalized just with the evidence this documentary provides; that he 
is probably collecting some type of disability while he has the 
ability to trek all over the Appalacians and his clear knowledge that 
he is doing it illegally. Unfortunately, all the education in the 
world will not stop folks like him from getting what they can, when 
they can, and however they can and threaten the entire tradition of 
wildcrafting. The only solution is to go after those types with 
penalties and also focus on the brokers of illegally obtained 
material. I expect documenting sources either is not part of the 
ginseng requirements for brokers or it is simply not enforced.

I am looking forward to the second segment, more hoping that the gent 
will be caught (never thought I would say something like that about a 
wildcrafter) and that there would be something good would come by 
deterring inappropriate non-sustainable practices.

Roy

On Sun Jan 12 18:12:13 2014, Edward Fletcher 
<efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net> wrote:

> This show sensationalizes the fringe element of the ginseng industry, NOT
> the true 'wild crafters' and long heritage of one of our American botanical
> treasures. But then why would 'they' want to make a show that depicts lawful
> and ethical people who are just trying to put shoes on their children's feet
> and food on the table....
>
> Just as Russ, I was shocked that they showed Actaea pachypoda and called it
> 'black cohosh'. This shows just how deep and thorough they researched their
> subject matter before filming! How can we make them retract and/or correct
> this possibly dangerous flagrant inaccuracy.
>
> Genuinely,
> Edward J. Fletcher
> Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
> Botanical Division, C.O.O.
> 828.898.7642
> Fax.898.7647
> Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net
> www.StrategicSourcingInc.net <http://www.StrategicSourcingInc.net/> 
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "MPWG" <mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org>
> Sent: 1/10/2014 4:47 PM
> To: "Jeanine Davis" <Jeanine_Davis at ncsu.edu>
> Cc: "Ikhlas Khan" <ikhan at olemiss.edu>; "Mark Blumenthal"
> <Mark at herbalgram.org>; "Stefan Gafner" <stefan at herbalgram.org>;
> "MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org" <MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org>
> Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program
>
>
>
> Very sobering. Like the fishermen in Cape Cod. No regard for the future, for
> the land, or for anything other than an instant buck. Very sad.--Roy
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Jeanine Davis wrote:
>
>
>
> This is all so frustrating. And it is discouraging forest landowners from
> planting wild-simulated ginseng because they are afraid with all this
> publicity it is in even greater danger of being poached. Jeanine
>
> Jeanine M. Davis, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor and Extension Specialist
> Dept. of Horticultural Science, NC State University
> Email: Jeanine_Davis at ncsu.edu <x-msg://157/Jeanine_Davis@ncsu.edu%20>
> Websites:  http://ncherb.org <http://ncherb.org/>  <http://ncherb.org/>
> http://ncspecialtycrops.org <http://ncspecialtycrops.org/>  <http://ncspecialtycrops.org/>
> http://ncorganic.org <http://ncorganic.org/>  <http://ncorganic.org/>
> Blog:  http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com <http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com/> 
> <http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com/>
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/JeanineNCSU
> Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeanine-Davis/1442912228>
> http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeanine-Davis/1442912228
> Address: Mtn. Hort. Crops Research & Extension Center
> 455 Research Drive, Mills River, NC 28759
> Phone:  828-684-3562   FAX:  828-684-8715
>
> From: MPWG [mailto:mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
> Susan Leopold
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:47 AM
> To: ForestRuss at aol.com
> Cc: MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org
> Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program
>
> Thank you Russ for pointing out the information of wrong identification,
> which sets the stage for the show and possibly more of its kind in the
> works. I personally think it is horrific to have a ginseng show that
> glorifies poaching and all the illegal activity that took place in this show
> to continue with no consequences.  If is was a show about poaching a
> protected animal I wonder how the public would react?
>
> I think this quote from the main ginseng dealers sums up how plants are
> perceived.. see quote and link below.
>
> UpS has released a formal press release warning the History Channel about
> the dangers of promoting poaching of a threatened species...
>
>  "its a protected species, but I don't know why. Its a plant'
> http://www.register-herald.com/local/x1956140531/New-reality-show-focuses-on
> -state-ginseng-business
> http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/12/25/new-reality-show-focuses-on-west-v
> irginia-ginseng-business/
>
> On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:19 AM, ForestRuss at aol.com wrote:
>
>
> MPWG:
>
> A new program had its debut on History Channel  yesterday 01/09/14 called
> "Appalachian Outlaws.
>
> The program appears to be more about the being a ginseng poacher than almost
> anything else and I am uncertain how it could impact ginseng
> growers...beyond making theft a thrill game.
>
> One concern I have as a long time grower of black Cohosh in a forest setting
> is that one of the poachers already has identified "dolls eye",  Actaea
> pachypoda, as black Cohosh, a very incorrect ID.  They made a point of
> showing the fruit and the foliage.
>
> As a grower of the medicinal black Cohosh plant I think that in 2014 black
> Cohosh root buyers might have to be more vigilant in vetting their purchases
> to make sure they aren't getting poison.
>
> I would appreciate other peoples' thoughts or comments on the program
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Russ Richardson, Certified Forester
>
>
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> Any advice given on this list regarding diagnosis or treatments etc.
> reflects ONLY the opinion of the individual who posts the message. The
> information contained in posts is not intended nor implied to be a
> substitute for professional medical advice relative to your specific medical
> condition or question. All medical and other healthcare information that is
> discussed on this list should be carefully reviewed by the individual reader
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â€œMalo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.â€ 

Robin Alton Suggs

MoonBranch Botanicals

5294 Yellow Creek Road

Robbinsville, North Carolina 28771 

USA

Telephone: 828.479.2788

Email: moonbranch at earthlink.net

Websites:

www.moonbranch.com  &  www.localharvest.org/store/M16074

Member:

Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project; Farm Partner

Green Products Alliance 

North Carolina Consortium on Natural Medicines 

North Carolina Goodness Grows/NCDA&CS 

United Plant Savers

One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.

- Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.

Civil disobedience becomes a sacred duty when the state becomes lawless or corrupt.

- Mahatma Gandhi

Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.

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