[APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data

Wed Sep 5 20:14:23 CDT 2012

I think you are having the most relevant discussion out West.  It's time to
start focussing on the real problem.

On 5 September 2012 15:18, Joe Franke <sapogordoeco at comcast.net> wrote:

> There is a perhaps different but related discussion that’s going on out
> here in the West concerning Tamarisk. To many of us attempting to do
> restoration work we’ve realized that the spread and extreme “weediness” of
> plant is more of a symptom of poor water management than an evil unto
> itself, and becomes a convenient shill that distracts (mostly federal) land
> managers from the real problem: not enough water on the land, and disrupted
> flood cycles. We can blame tamarisk all we want, but the real problem lies
> in our species’  wasteful use and mismanagement of the water resource.
>
>
> On 9/4/12 7:35 PM, "Robert Layton Beyfuss" <rlb14 at cornell.edu> wrote:
>
>  Thanks to all who have responded and elaborated on my original query. I
> think the general consensus is that native plants cannot be “officially”
> invasive but they surely can be problematic! I have a colleague at Cornell
> who refers to native weeds that behave like invasives as “interfering”
> vegetation. No one has ever satisfactorily defined “exotic” in my opinion
> and I consider Clinton’s executive order as a political gaffe that has
> mostly served to make ecologists fight over semantics as the exchanges here
> seem to verify. I am not so sure how much science has advanced due to
> executive orders.  It has also generated a backlash that causes people to
> hate plants from Europe or Asia in general and to create black lists and
> white lists of plants which  I find very disturbing. Vastly different
> ecosystems exist even within a given state or region. I consider it
> impossible to say that a plant which is native to Canada is exotic anywhere
> in n North America but it surely does not exist in many American
> ecosystems.. So where does one draw the border line? Black locust, as one
> poster mentioned is a classic example of a plant that grew satisfactorily
> in one particular place, but now seems to be a problem in other places not
> very far away. Some states consider it as exotic. Plants don’t recognize
> borders and neither should we in trying to tell “good” plants from “bad”
> plants based on their lack of green cards. Ecosystems are highly dynamic as
> succession creates profound changes in species composition. Almost all
> plants have their merits and demerits in ecosystems and many exotic plants
> have served us very well indeed. Poison ivy may provide food for 60 or 70
> bird species but so do Autumn olive and multiflora rose without being toxic
> to touch.  Introduced species are now hybridizing with related native ones
> as is the case with Phragmites and probably others. How will we classify
> their offspring? If they originate in the US, are they not native? If the
> hybrids become even more invasive does that fact become moot because they
> originated here?
>
>
>
> *From:* Claudia Thompson-Deahl [mailto:CLAUDIA at reston.org]<CLAUDIA at reston.org]>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:34 PM
> *To:* Marc Imlay; Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov; Robert Layton Beyfuss
> *Cc:* native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org;
> apwg at lists.plantconservation.org; 'Katy Cummings'
> *Subject:* RE: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
> I would be surprised if Poison Ivy is on the National Park Service Exotic
> Plant Management Teams list as I have heard about 70 species of birds eat
> the berries and it is a native.
>
> Claudia Thompson-Deahl
>
>
> *
> Environmental Resource Manager
> ISA Certified Arborist # MA-5203A
> 12250 Sunset Hills Road
> Reston, VA 20190
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> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org [
> mailto:apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org]<apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org]>
> *On Behalf Of *Marc Imlay
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:02 AM
> *To:* Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov; 'Robert Layton Beyfuss'
> *Cc:* native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org;
> apwg at lists.plantconservation.org; 'Katy Cummings'
> *Subject:* Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
> *I show my volunteers how Poison ivy is dominant in eary succession
> habitats after an unnatural disturbance but becomes a minor species in
> fully recovered woodlands. The same for sweetgum.
> *
> *Marc Imlay, PhD,
> Conservation biologist, Park Ranger Office
> *
> *(301) 442-5657 cell
> *
> *ialm at erols.com
> *
> *Natural and Historical Resources Division
> *
> *The  Maryland-National   Capital   Park  and Planning Commission
> *
> *www.pgparks.com** <http://www.pgparks.com/> <http://www.pgparks.com/>
> *
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> *From:* apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org [
> mailto:apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org]<apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org]>
> *On Behalf Of *Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov
> *Sent:* Monday, August 27, 2012 10:25 AM
> *To:* Robert Layton Beyfuss
> *Cc:* native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org;
> apwg at lists.plantconservation.org; Katy Cummings
> *Subject:* Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
> Cheers, Bob!
>
> My two cents:
>
>    - A native can most definitely be an invasive.  Teal and Mark's
>    comments elucidate that issue well.
>    - I'm not sure what list you might be referring to, but from what I
>    understand of the Federal Noxious Weed list, I believe that plants that are
>    either naturalized or have completely overrun the US will not end up on
>    that list. I believe that list tends to include species that are in the
>    earlier stages of invasion where prevention of further influxes can still
>    make a difference for slowing the spread. I also doubt it would be on any
>    state list - those often tend to be geared to non-natives and ornamental
>    plants - of which poison ivy is neither.
>
>
> It seems like poison ivy falls into a strange no-man's land - as a native,
> it doesn't seem to fit on the PCA ALien Plant WOrking Group listserve - yet
> the expertise on that list may be more appropriate (versus this general
> native plant listserve) because they are the folks with specific insight on
> invasive species biology.
>
> I wonder if any of the National Park Service Exotic Plant Management Teams
> have identified it as among their top ten target taxa in any of their
> regions?
>
> -Patricia
>
> Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.
> Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife
> Service-International Affairs
> Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance
> 4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110
> Arlington, VA  22203
> 703-358-1708 x1753
> FAX: 703-358-2276
>
> Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants.
> <www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal <http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal><http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal>>
>
>
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>  *Robert Layton Beyfuss <rlb14 at cornell.edu>*
> Sent by: native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org 08/27/2012
> 09:45 AM
> To Katy Cummings <katy.e.cummings at gmail.com>, "
> native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org" <
> native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org>
> cc
> Subject Re: [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi All
> I am a bit confused and hope you can enlighten me. I thought that the
> basic definition of an invasive plant was that it had to be exotic.  There
> are many native plants that create almost solid monocultures such as common
> goldenrod yet can it be “undesirable” at any density? . Poison ivy can
> overrun entire areas but I have never seen it listed as invasive.
> Bob
>
> *From:* native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org [
> mailto:native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org]<native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org]>
> *On Behalf Of *Katy Cummings
> *Sent:* Monday, August 20, 2012 9:28 PM
> *To:* native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org
> *Subject:* [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
> Fellow Conservationists-
>
> I work for The Nature Conservancy (TNC) in Door County, WI.  My main
> project this summer has been mapping exotic and native stands of Phragmites
> (*Phragmites australis* and *Phragmites australis americanus*) throughout
> TNC properties in Door County.  I have some questions and experiences to
> share with you as our organization tries to learn more about the
> native/exotic Phragmites issue.
>
> We all know what havoc the exotic Phragmites subspecies can wreak on an
> ecosystem, but do we know anything about the native subspecies?  *Is
> there any research out there showing that the native Phragmites can behave
> as aggressively as the exotic?  *In Door County, the native usually grows
> in scattered to moderate densities along with other wetland plants, with a
> few patches showing denser concentrations.  There are a few areas where the
> native has reached undesirable “dense” concentrations, but as of yet we
> don’t know why.
>
> *What other plants are associated with the native Phragmites?*  TNC will
> be setting up monitoring plots soon on some of our native patches, and when
> we get that data I’ll send it to any interested people from this list.  The
> only list I’ve been able to find is from a chapter by Laura Meyerson et al.
> in “Invasions in North American Salt Marshes” entitled “Phragmites
> australis in Eastern North America: A Historical and Ecological
> Perspective”.  Does anyone know of other lists from different regions of
> the U.S.?
>
> *Are there any patterns to where native Phragmites is found?  *During my
> mapping of the plant in Door County, I’ve generally found native Phragmites
> set back from the edge of waterways and growing in more marshy areas.
>
> *What have you all seen as far as size of patches, number of patches,
> location, rate of spread, etc. of the native Phragmites in your area?  *Most
> of the wetlands in Door County are fed by alkaline ground water discharge
> as a result of movement through the underlying dolomitic bedrock.  I assume
> that because of these alkaline conditions we have a higher population of
> native Phragmites than perhaps other regions of the Midwest.  Is this true?
>
>
> To help answer these questions, The Nature Conservancy’s Door Peninsula
> office has temporarily halted eradication measures of native lineages of *
> Phragmites*.  We are in the process of developing long-term monitoring
> plots in native *Phragmites *stands throughout Nature Conservancy
> holdings in Door County, WI.  The goals of this monitoring project will be
> to assess the following questions:
> *1.**      *Under what conditions do native stands become aggressive?
>
> *2.**      *At what threshold is a native stand damaging to the
> community?
>
> *3.**      *What plants are commonly associated with native *Phragmites *in
> the Great Lakes region?
> If you are interested, I can send you a more detailed methodology for our
> monitoring project, including what parameters we will be sampling.
>
> As an additional note, I’d encourage people to mention there is a native
> variety of Phragmites and differentiate between the two strains in any
> publications or documents.
>
> I look forward to your input!
>
>
> Thanks again,
> Katy Cummings
> katy.e.cummings at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> Joe Franke
> Sapo Gordo Ecological Restoration Services
> Chile Dog Designs, Inc.
> 1228 Lafayette Dr. NE
> Albuquerque, NM 87106 USA
> ph: 505-515-8736
> Sapogordoeco at comcast.net
>
>
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