[APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
Joe Franke
sapogordoeco at comcast.net
Wed Sep 5 15:18:40 CDT 2012
There is a perhaps different but related discussion that¹s going on out here
in the West concerning Tamarisk. To many of us attempting to do restoration
work we¹ve realized that the spread and extreme ³weediness² of plant is more
of a symptom of poor water management than an evil unto itself, and becomes
a convenient shill that distracts (mostly federal) land managers from the
real problem: not enough water on the land, and disrupted flood cycles. We
can blame tamarisk all we want, but the real problem lies in our species¹
wasteful use and mismanagement of the water resource.
On 9/4/12 7:35 PM, "Robert Layton Beyfuss" <rlb14 at cornell.edu> wrote:
> Thanks to all who have responded and elaborated on my original query. I think
> the general consensus is that native plants cannot be ³officially² invasive
> but they surely can be problematic! I have a colleague at Cornell who refers
> to native weeds that behave like invasives as ³interfering² vegetation. No one
> has ever satisfactorily defined ³exotic² in my opinion and I consider
> Clinton¹s executive order as a political gaffe that has mostly served to make
> ecologists fight over semantics as the exchanges here seem to verify. I am not
> so sure how much science has advanced due to executive orders. It has also
> generated a backlash that causes people to hate plants from Europe or Asia in
> general and to create black lists and white lists of plants which I find very
> disturbing. Vastly different ecosystems exist even within a given state or
> region. I consider it impossible to say that a plant which is native to Canada
> is exotic anywhere in n North America but it surely does not exist in many
> American ecosystems.. So where does one draw the border line? Black locust, as
> one poster mentioned is a classic example of a plant that grew satisfactorily
> in one particular place, but now seems to be a problem in other places not
> very far away. Some states consider it as exotic. Plants don¹t recognize
> borders and neither should we in trying to tell ³good² plants from ³bad²
> plants based on their lack of green cards. Ecosystems are highly dynamic as
> succession creates profound changes in species composition. Almost all plants
> have their merits and demerits in ecosystems and many exotic plants have
> served us very well indeed. Poison ivy may provide food for 60 or 70 bird
> species but so do Autumn olive and multiflora rose without being toxic to
> touch. Introduced species are now hybridizing with related native ones as is
> the case with Phragmites and probably others. How will we classify their
> offspring? If they originate in the US, are they not native? If the hybrids
> become even more invasive does that fact become moot because they originated
> here?
>
>
>
> From: Claudia Thompson-Deahl [mailto:CLAUDIA at reston.org]
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:34 PM
> To: Marc Imlay; Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov; Robert Layton Beyfuss
> Cc: native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org;
> apwg at lists.plantconservation.org; 'Katy Cummings'
> Subject: RE: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
> I would be surprised if Poison Ivy is on the National Park Service Exotic
> Plant Management Teams list as I have heard about 70 species of birds eat the
> berries and it is a native.
>
> Claudia Thompson-Deahl
>
>
> Environmental Resource Manager
> ISA Certified Arborist # MA-5203A
> 12250 Sunset Hills Road
> Reston, VA 20190
> 703.435.6547
> claudia at reston.org <mailto:claudia at reston.org>
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> From: apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org
> [mailto:apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Marc Imlay
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:02 AM
> To: Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov; 'Robert Layton Beyfuss'
> Cc: native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org;
> apwg at lists.plantconservation.org; 'Katy Cummings'
> Subject: Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
> I show my volunteers how Poison ivy is dominant in eary succession habitats
> after an unnatural disturbance but becomes a minor species in fully recovered
> woodlands. The same for sweetgum.
>
> Marc Imlay, PhD,
> Conservation biologist, Park Ranger Office
>
> (301) 442-5657 cell
>
> ialm at erols.com
>
> Natural and Historical Resources Division
>
> The Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission
>
> www.pgparks.com <http://www.pgparks.com/>
>
>
>
>
> From: apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org
> [mailto:apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
> Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:25 AM
> To: Robert Layton Beyfuss
> Cc: native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org;
> apwg at lists.plantconservation.org; Katy Cummings
> Subject: Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
> Cheers, Bob!
>
> My two cents:
> * A native can most definitely be an invasive. Teal and Mark's comments
> elucidate that issue well.
> * I'm not sure what list you might be referring to, but from what I understand
> of the Federal Noxious Weed list, I believe that plants that are either
> naturalized or have completely overrun the US will not end up on that list. I
> believe that list tends to include species that are in the earlier stages of
> invasion where prevention of further influxes can still make a difference for
> slowing the spread. I also doubt it would be on any state list - those often
> tend to be geared to non-natives and ornamental plants - of which poison ivy
> is neither.
>
> It seems like poison ivy falls into a strange no-man's land - as a native, it
> doesn't seem to fit on the PCA ALien Plant WOrking Group listserve - yet the
> expertise on that list may be more appropriate (versus this general native
> plant listserve) because they are the folks with specific insight on invasive
> species biology.
>
> I wonder if any of the National Park Service Exotic Plant Management Teams
> have identified it as among their top ten target taxa in any of their regions?
>
> -Patricia
>
> Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.
> Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife
> Service-International Affairs
> Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance
> 4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110
> Arlington, VA 22203
> 703-358-1708 x1753
> FAX: 703-358-2276
>
> Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants.
> <www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal <http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal> >
>
> Follow International Affairs
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> Robert Layton Beyfuss <rlb14 at cornell.edu>
> Sent by: native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org 08/27/2012 09:45 AM
> To Katy Cummings <katy.e.cummings at gmail.com>,
> "native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org"
> <native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org>
> cc
> Subject Re: [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi All
> I am a bit confused and hope you can enlighten me. I thought that the basic
> definition of an invasive plant was that it had to be exotic. There are many
> native plants that create almost solid monocultures such as common goldenrod
> yet can it be ³undesirable² at any density? . Poison ivy can overrun entire
> areas but I have never seen it listed as invasive.
> Bob
>
> From: native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org
> [mailto:native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Katy
> Cummings
> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:28 PM
> To: native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org
> Subject: [PCA] Native Phragmites Data
>
> Fellow Conservationists-
>
> I work for The Nature Conservancy (TNC) in Door County, WI. My main project
> this summer has been mapping exotic and native stands of Phragmites
> (Phragmites australis and Phragmites australis americanus) throughout TNC
> properties in Door County. I have some questions and experiences to share
> with you as our organization tries to learn more about the native/exotic
> Phragmites issue.
>
> We all know what havoc the exotic Phragmites subspecies can wreak on an
> ecosystem, but do we know anything about the native subspecies? Is there any
> research out there showing that the native Phragmites can behave as
> aggressively as the exotic? In Door County, the native usually grows in
> scattered to moderate densities along with other wetland plants, with a few
> patches showing denser concentrations. There are a few areas where the native
> has reached undesirable ³dense² concentrations, but as of yet we don¹t know
> why.
>
> What other plants are associated with the native Phragmites? TNC will be
> setting up monitoring plots soon on some of our native patches, and when we
> get that data I¹ll send it to any interested people from this list. The only
> list I¹ve been able to find is from a chapter by Laura Meyerson et al. in
> ³Invasions in North American Salt Marshes² entitled ³Phragmites australis in
> Eastern North America: A Historical and Ecological Perspective². Does anyone
> know of other lists from different regions of the U.S.?
>
> Are there any patterns to where native Phragmites is found? During my mapping
> of the plant in Door County, I¹ve generally found native Phragmites set back
> from the edge of waterways and growing in more marshy areas.
>
> What have you all seen as far as size of patches, number of patches, location,
> rate of spread, etc. of the native Phragmites in your area? Most of the
> wetlands in Door County are fed by alkaline ground water discharge as a result
> of movement through the underlying dolomitic bedrock. I assume that because
> of these alkaline conditions we have a higher population of native Phragmites
> than perhaps other regions of the Midwest. Is this true?
>
> To help answer these questions, The Nature Conservancy¹s Door Peninsula office
> has temporarily halted eradication measures of native lineages of Phragmites.
> We are in the process of developing long-term monitoring plots in native
> Phragmites stands throughout Nature Conservancy holdings in Door County, WI.
> The goals of this monitoring project will be to assess the following
> questions:
> 1. Under what conditions do native stands become aggressive?
>
> 2. At what threshold is a native stand damaging to the community?
>
> 3. What plants are commonly associated with native Phragmites in the
> Great Lakes region?
> If you are interested, I can send you a more detailed methodology for our
> monitoring project, including what parameters we will be sampling.
>
> As an additional note, I¹d encourage people to mention there is a native
> variety of Phragmites and differentiate between the two strains in any
> publications or documents.
>
> I look forward to your input!
>
>
> Thanks again,
> Katy Cummings
> katy.e.cummings at gmail.com
>
Joe Franke
Sapo Gordo Ecological Restoration Services
Chile Dog Designs, Inc.
1228 Lafayette Dr. NE
Albuquerque, NM 87106 USA
ph: 505-515-8736
Sapogordoeco at comcast.net
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