[APWG] Why not succeed the first time, with Performance Standards?

Wed Aug 26 07:16:36 CDT 2009

Please understand all of our seeding projects are native but our biologist includes one non-native species other than cover crop.  Intermediate wheatgrass is supposed to disappear over time (though I have my doubts).  Since 1977 Nebraska has used warm season grasses for all roadside seeding.  We have been doing this much longer than Iowa because fescue will not survive in the western part of the state.  We do seed natives next to brome but if the brome invades we don't spray it.  Some of the best tools for managing native grasslands however are unavailable to us: prescribed burning and grazing.  I'm always pleased to see a grass fire on the interstate caused by a burning vehicle as long as no one is hurt.   Thanks so much for all of your input and it's true that some of our roadsides are important refugia for rare native species.  The threatened western prairie fringed orchid, lady's slipper, and many other rare plants thrive in our ditches and we protect them.

-----Original Message-----
From: apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org [mailto:apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Addsum-Tony Frates
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 4:47 PM
To: apwg at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: Re: [APWG] Why not succeed the first time, with Performance Standards?

Alison - I think you point out practical problems that exist that need to be taken into 
account into various strategies and techniques available.

I will not try to define a weed, but I think it is clear that any plant that is not historically 
native (natural) to a given area and that has a known or any likely tendency to spread 
into adjoining open spaces should not  be planted in any roadside projects, ever (nor 
in response to mitigation of projects of all kinds which roads are also often a very 
large part of - suppose you have hundreds of miles of roads that lead to oil and gas 
pads in an otherwise remote area and which intersect rare plant habitat  - you 
wouldn't want to introduce something new into that area for many reasons that are 
hopefully apparent).

Oftentimes too, roadsides are one of the few refuges for native plants in many areas.  
So, in my opinion, roadsides should most definitely be viewed as more of a 
restoration than not, and whenever possible that approach should be taken.   All 
available open lands in fact should use natural/native components to the extent 
possible.  Always.  

So it is indeed sad that you reseed an area adjoining a brome pasture with brome.  
That would seem to add fuel to the fire.   If the brome is going to invade anyway, why 
not still seed with something else?  Part of the problem is that these are really multi-
year projects and not single one-shot problems yet agencies are not taking that into 
account (no doubt due to lack of funding, understanding, etc.).   Agencies have to 
ultimately change their approach somehow.   Part of the problem is that whoever is 
causing the disturbance in the first place is not paying their full share in connection 
with the damage that they are causing.  That is where the money should at least in 
part be coming from.

So to answer one question, I would say absolutely not.  This discussion is hardly 
limited to any geographic area whatsoever.  It applies to anywhere in the world.

As to laws that require otherwise, we are all forced to comply with rules and 
regulations that we do not necessarily agree with or that were not implemented 
based on good science (or should be changed based on newer knowledge).    So we 
comply, but we work and strive for change based on the best available science and 
based on an ecosystem approach as our model.    The lack of available seed is truly 
a problem as you point out, but one that with more enlightened laws and stewardship 
would lead to the growing of ecotypes that could hypothetically support the demand if 
techniques were developed, or at least that would be the ideal.  

Yes there is a lot of frustration that I think we all share.   But we can do better.  And 
so we have to start somewhere.   So, why not with roadsides?   We've covered the 
planet with more roads than anything else and we don't appear to be stopping.

Tony Frates

From:           	"Krohn, Alison" <Alison.Krohn at nebraska.gov>
To:             	Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company <Craig at astreet.com>,
	"apwg at lists.plantconservation.org" <apwg at lists.plantconservation.org>
Date sent:      	Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:54:01 -0500
Subject:        	Re: [APWG] Why not succeed the first time,
	with Performance Standards?

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 How does this group define a weed?  Are naturalized plants like lambs quarters 
viewed the same as native ragweed?  I'm very confused by the insistence on 100% 
native purity. I don't think it's possible in the Midwest. I work for a state transportation 
agency and we seed 98% native species, not local ecotype.  But when our seeding 
adjoins a brome pasture, brome will invade and we cannot spend public resources to 
prevent that.  Is this discussion confined to the great basin and California?

Is everyone aware of the clean water act and the requirements of the NPDES 
construction permit?  Anywhere more than 1 acre is disturbed (unless you're a 
farmer) a construction stormwater permit is required and remains open until 70% of 
the pre-construction/native, perennial vegetation is restored.  Most of the roadsides 
we are regrading and seeding were brome.  Native prairie vegetation, especially 
mixed grass areas will provide less vegetative cover than the brome and therefore 
will potentially discharge more sediment into our waterways (if you believe the 
RUSLE2 model).  I'm not advocating brome, just want to point out the mixed 
messages out there and conflicting expectations.  We must stabilize erodible soils 
within 14 days under the clean water act to protect our waterways.  This state uses a 
mix of cool and warm season grasses to meet this requirement along with some 
forbs. It is not a restoration mix. 

I also grow local ecotype seed and obviously support its  use but there is not enough 
of this seed in our area to restore roadsides and there doesn't appear to be the 
public support for this endeavor in terms of dollars from FHWA, the state 
government or wealthy donors. I applaud all of the research that Craig and others are 
doing but am frustrated by the assumption that roadsides are restorations.  We just 
don't have the resources to pull it off.

-----Original Message-----
From: apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org [mailto:apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:07 AM
To: apwg at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: [APWG] Why not succeed the first time, with Performance Standards?

Dear Wayne and All,

Thanks for your email.

Did everyone enjoy the Europe to Africa vegetation Megatransect  at
http://www.ecoseeds.com/europe_africa_megatransect.html ?
I extended the web page yesterday, to cover from the northern tip of
Norway (70N) to the southern tip of Africa (34S).  How about those rocks
in Mali at 18N?

What I am suggesting, is that we start looking for weed management or
Ecological Restoration methods, with Performance Standards, for our
projects, espcially the government-funded ones, like habitat restoration,
or highway roadsides, etc.

Up to now, when someone purchased local native seeds, or purchased native
plants from a nursery, there was a hope that the seed company or the
nursery would be able to tell you, how to plant those seeds or plants, so
they would succeed and thrive in a wildlands situation.

Being the owner of a seed company and nursery myself, it is all that a
seed company or nursery can do for the price, to deliver good germinating,
weed-free native seeds, or nurseries to deliver healthy native plants---to
expect them to give you any advice on how to plant them in a wildlands
situation, is way, way beyond the scope of their work.

Successful technologies on planting those natives back into wildlands, and
getting them to survive, is a separate, very expensive puzzle to solve,
and is going to require a separate, very significant investment.

That is why I set forth a set of costs per 1/10th acre, on how much it may
cost to invent the technologies necessary, at
http://www.ecoseeds.com/standards.html

A similar situation happened in the computer industry before 1967. 
Computers were built and sold, and the software and operating systems were
free.  But when the programs and operating systems were free,  there was
no economic incentive to write better ones, so they were very slow and
clunky--it might take 12 hours to process one job, for example.

Then, in 1967, Kenneth Kolence started the first business to write and
license software, and his first product was one that is still used today,
the disk defragmentation program, which rearranged the programs on the
disk so all the parts of each program were right next to each other,
greatly speeding up the computer operations.

It seems much more efficient, to start out buying or licensing a
pre-tested weed management or ecological restoration program, that has
some solid Performance Standards supporting it?

Otherwise, the scary, horror-show of the I-505 planting in the Sacramento
valley, we see it is possible to invest $450,000 on a couple of acres, 
and by using the unlicensed, public domain, off-the-shelf free restoration
technologies, still not get it right after six years and five planting
attempts?  Why not succeed the first time?

Sincerely,  Craig Dremann (650) 325-7333

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_______________________________________________
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APWG at lists.plantconservation.org
http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org

Disclaimer
Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the opinion of the individual posting the message.