<div>I think you are having the most relevant discussion out West. It's time to start focussing on the real problem. <br><br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 5 September 2012 15:18, Joe Franke <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sapogordoeco@comcast.net" target="_blank">sapogordoeco@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px">There is a perhaps different but related discussion that’s going on out here in the West concerning Tamarisk. To many of us attempting to do restoration work we’ve realized that the spread and extreme “weediness” of plant is more of a symptom of poor water management than an evil unto itself, and becomes a convenient shill that distracts (mostly federal) land managers from the real problem: not enough water on the land, and disrupted flood cycles. We can blame tamarisk all we want, but the real problem lies in our species’ wasteful use and mismanagement of the water resource. <br>
<div class="im"><br><br>On 9/4/12 7:35 PM, "Robert Layton Beyfuss" <<a href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu" target="_blank">rlb14@cornell.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br></div></span></font>
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<div class="im"><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:14px">Thanks to all who have responded and elaborated on my original query. I think the general consensus is that native plants cannot be “officially” invasive but they surely can be problematic! I have a colleague at Cornell who refers to native weeds that behave like invasives as “interfering” vegetation. No one has ever satisfactorily defined “exotic” in my opinion and I consider Clinton’s executive order as a political gaffe that has mostly served to make ecologists fight over semantics as the exchanges here seem to verify. I am not so sure how much science has advanced due to executive orders. It has also generated a backlash that causes people to hate plants from Europe or Asia in general and to create black lists and white lists of plants which I find very disturbing. Vastly different ecosystems exist even within a given state or region. I consider it impossible to say that a plant which is native to Canada is exotic anywhere in n North America but it surely does not exist in many American ecosystems.. So where does one draw the border line? Black locust, as one poster mentioned is a classic example of a plant that grew satisfactorily in one particular place, but now seems to be a problem in other places not very far away. Some states consider it as exotic. Plants don’t recognize borders and neither should we in trying to tell “good” plants from “bad” plants based on their lack of green cards. Ecosystems are highly dynamic as succession creates profound changes in species composition. Almost all plants have their merits and demerits in ecosystems and many exotic plants have served us very well indeed. Poison ivy may provide food for 60 or 70 bird species but so do Autumn olive and multiflora rose without being toxic to touch. Introduced species are now hybridizing with related native ones as is the case with Phragmites and probably others. How will we classify their offspring? If they originate in the US, are they not native? If the hybrids become even more invasive does that fact become moot because they originated here? <br>
<br> <br></span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><br></span><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px"><b>From:</b> Claudia Thompson-Deahl [<a href="mailto:CLAUDIA@reston.org]" target="_blank">mailto:CLAUDIA@reston.org]</a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:34 PM<br><b>To:</b> Marc Imlay; <a href="mailto:Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov" target="_blank">Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov</a>; Robert Layton Beyfuss<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a>; <a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>; 'Katy Cummings'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data<br></span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><br></span><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px">I would be surprised if Poison Ivy is on the National Park Service Exotic Plant Management Teams list as I have heard about 70 species of birds eat the berries and it is a native.<br>
<br>Claudia Thompson-Deahl <br> <br></span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><br></span></div><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px"><i>
<div class="im">Environmental Resource Manager<br>ISA Certified Arborist # MA-5203A<br>12250 Sunset Hills Road<br>Reston, VA 20190<br><a href="tel:703.435.6547" target="_blank" value="+17034356547">703.435.6547</a><br></div>
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<div class="im"><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a> [<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]" target="_blank">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Marc Imlay<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:02 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov" target="_blank">Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov</a>; 'Robert Layton Beyfuss'<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a>; <a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>; 'Katy Cummings'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data<br></span></font></div><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px">
<div class="im"><br><b>I show my volunteers how Poison ivy is dominant in eary succession habitats after an unnatural disturbance but becomes a minor species in fully recovered woodlands. The same for sweetgum.<br></b><br>
<b>Marc Imlay, PhD,<br>Conservation biologist, Park Ranger Office<br></b><br><b><a href="tel:%28301%29%20442-5657" target="_blank" value="+13014425657">(301) 442-5657</a> cell<br></b><br><b><font color="#008000"><a href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target="_blank">ialm@erols.com</a><br>
</font></b><br><b>Natural and Historical Resources Division<br></b><br><b>The Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission<br></b><br></div><font color="#008000"><b><a href="http://www.pgparks.com/" target="_blank">www.pgparks.com</a></b></font><b> <a href="http://www.pgparks.com/" target="_blank"><http://www.pgparks.com/></a> <br>
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<div class="im"><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><br></span><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a> [<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]" target="_blank">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov" target="_blank">Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 27, 2012 10:25 AM<br><b>To:</b> Robert Layton Beyfuss<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a>; <a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>; Katy Cummings<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data<br></span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><br>Cheers, Bob! <br><br>My two cents: <br></span></font>
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<li><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px">A native can most definitely be an invasive. Teal and Mark's comments elucidate that issue well. </span></font>
<li><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px">I'm not sure what list you might be referring to, but from what I understand of the Federal Noxious Weed list, I believe that plants that are either naturalized or have completely overrun the US will not end up on that list. I believe that list tends to include species that are in the earlier stages of invasion where prevention of further influxes can still make a difference for slowing the spread. I also doubt it would be on any state list - those often tend to be geared to non-natives and ornamental plants - of which poison ivy is neither. <br>
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<div class="im"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><br>It seems like poison ivy falls into a strange no-man's land - as a native, it doesn't seem to fit on the PCA ALien Plant WOrking Group listserve - yet the expertise on that list may be more appropriate (versus this general native plant listserve) because they are the folks with specific insight on invasive species biology. <br>
<br>I wonder if any of the National Park Service Exotic Plant Management Teams have identified it as among their top ten target taxa in any of their regions? <br><br>-Patricia <br><br></span></div><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px">
<div class="im">Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.<br>Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife Service-International Affairs<br>Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance<br>4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110<br>
Arlington, VA 22203<br><a href="tel:703-358-1708%20x1753" target="_blank" value="+17033581708">703-358-1708 x1753</a><br>FAX: <a href="tel:703-358-2276" target="_blank" value="+17033582276">703-358-2276</a><br><br>Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants. <br>
</div><<a href="http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal" target="_blank">www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal</a> <a href="http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal" target="_blank"><http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal></a> >
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<div class="h5"><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px"><b>Robert Layton Beyfuss <<a href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu" target="_blank">rlb14@cornell.edu</a>></b> <br>Sent by: <a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a></span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> </span><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px">08/27/2012 09:45 AM</span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> <br>
</span><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px">To</span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> </span><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px">Katy Cummings <<a href="mailto:katy.e.cummings@gmail.com" target="_blank">katy.e.cummings@gmail.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a>></span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> <br>
</span><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px">cc</span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> <br></span><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px">Subject</span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> </span><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px">Re: [PCA] Native Phragmites Data</span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> <br>
<br> <br><br><br><br></span><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px">Hi All</span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> <br></span><font size="4"><span style="FONT-SIZE:13px">I am a bit confused and hope you can enlighten me. I thought that the basic definition of an invasive plant was that it had to be exotic. There are many native plants that create almost solid monocultures such as common goldenrod yet can it be “undesirable” at any density? . Poison ivy can overrun entire areas but I have never seen it listed as invasive. <br>
Bob <br> <br><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a> [<a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]" target="_blank">mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Katy Cummings<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 20, 2012 9:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> [PCA] Native Phragmites Data</span></font><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"> <br>
<br>Fellow Conservationists- <br> <br>I work for The Nature Conservancy (TNC) in Door County, WI. My main project this summer has been mapping exotic and native stands of Phragmites (<i>Phragmites australis</i> and <i>Phragmites australis americanus</i>) throughout TNC properties in Door County. I have some questions and experiences to share with you as our organization tries to learn more about the native/exotic Phragmites issue. <br>
<br>We all know what havoc the exotic Phragmites subspecies can wreak on an ecosystem, but do we know anything about the native subspecies? <b>Is there any research out there showing that the native Phragmites can behave as aggressively as the exotic? </b>In Door County, the native usually grows in scattered to moderate densities along with other wetland plants, with a few patches showing denser concentrations. There are a few areas where the native has reached undesirable “dense” concentrations, but as of yet we don’t know why. <br>
<br><b>What other plants are associated with the native Phragmites?</b> TNC will be setting up monitoring plots soon on some of our native patches, and when we get that data I’ll send it to any interested people from this list. The only list I’ve been able to find is from a chapter by Laura Meyerson et al. in “Invasions in North American Salt Marshes” entitled “Phragmites australis in Eastern North America: A Historical and Ecological Perspective”. Does anyone know of other lists from different regions of the U.S.? <br>
<br><b>Are there any patterns to where native Phragmites is found? </b>During my mapping of the plant in Door County, I’ve generally found native Phragmites set back from the edge of waterways and growing in more marshy areas. <br>
<br><b>What have you all seen as far as size of patches, number of patches, location, rate of spread, etc. of the native Phragmites in your area? </b>Most of the wetlands in Door County are fed by alkaline ground water discharge as a result of movement through the underlying dolomitic bedrock. I assume that because of these alkaline conditions we have a higher population of native Phragmites than perhaps other regions of the Midwest. Is this true? <br>
<br>To help answer these questions, The Nature Conservancy’s Door Peninsula office has temporarily halted eradication measures of native lineages of <i>Phragmites</i>. We are in the process of developing long-term monitoring plots in native <i>Phragmites </i>stands throughout Nature Conservancy holdings in Door County, WI. The goals of this monitoring project will be to assess the following questions: <br>
<i>1.</i></span><i><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px"> </span></font></i><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px">Under what conditions do native stands become aggressive? <br><br><i>2.</i></span><i><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px"> </span></font></i><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px">At what threshold is a native stand damaging to the community? <br>
<br><i>3.</i></span><i><font size="1"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9px"> </span></font></i><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px">What plants are commonly associated with native <i>Phragmites </i>in the Great Lakes region? <br>If you are interested, I can send you a more detailed methodology for our monitoring project, including what parameters we will be sampling. <br>
<br>As an additional note, I’d encourage people to mention there is a native variety of Phragmites and differentiate between the two strains in any publications or documents. <br> <br>I look forward to your input! <br>
<br> <br>Thanks again, <br>Katy Cummings <br><a href="mailto:katy.e.cummings@gmail.com" target="_blank">katy.e.cummings@gmail.com</a> <br><br></span></div></div></font>
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<p></p></p></p></p></p></blockquote><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><br><br><img><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br></font></span></span></font><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12px"><font color="#008000"><font face="Adobe Garamond Pro Bold Italic">Joe Franke<br>
Sapo Gordo Ecological Restoration Services<br>Chile Dog Designs, Inc.<br>1228 Lafayette Dr. NE<br>Albuquerque, NM 87106 USA<br>ph: <a href="tel:505-515-8736" target="_blank" value="+15055158736">505-515-8736</a><br><a href="mailto:Sapogordoeco@comcast.net" target="_blank">Sapogordoeco@comcast.net</a></font></font><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><br>
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