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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">James: The biological species concept will not be used for plants - certainly in our lifetimes and probably not ever. For example: all Baptisia, Echinacea, and Sarracenia
taxa would each be considered individual species! Johnny</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Johnny Randall, Ph.D.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Director of Conservation Programs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">North Carolina Botanical Garden<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">CB 3375<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Chapel Hill NC 27599<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">ncbg.unc.edu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(W) 919-962-0522<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">(C) 919-923-0100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org [mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Trager<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Pyle, Charlotte - NRCS, Tolland, CT; Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov; apwg@lists.plantconservation.org; native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [PCA] Dandelion follow-up & Phragmites<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">I will make the following comment from the perspective of one who works in both the plant and animal systematics fields:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">For now, we’re stuck with them, but really, the plant systematists need to make an effort to rid the system of these trinomials (both subspecies and varieties, for
goodness sakes!), by elevating entities such as the <i>Taraxacum</i> subspecies to species (also
<i>Phragmites, Achillea</i>, etc.) as warranted, and synonymizing them where not warranted (no way reliably to discern them). These populations behave genetically like what zoosystematists call biological species (<i>á la</i> Ernst Mayr), a concept that has
the appearance of somehow never having caught on with botanists. One can certainly point to all sorts of difficult cases and imperfections in the use of the biological species paradigm, but I still think it would be an improvement over the mess of infraspecific
taxa that now so heavily burdens plant taxonomy. The botanists need to “get with the program”.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Now as for defining “native” and “non-native” – not something I wish to rant about at the moment!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoAutoSig"><span style="color:navy">James C. Trager, Ph. D.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoAutoSig"><span style="color:navy">Biologist - Naturalist<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoAutoSig"><span style="color:navy">Shaw Nature Reserve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoAutoSig"><span style="color:navy">P.O. Box 38<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoAutoSig"><span style="color:navy">Gray Summit MO 63039<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoAutoSig"><span style="color:navy">636-451-3512 ext. 6002<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org">native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]">[mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pyle, Charlotte - NRCS, Tolland, CT<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov">Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov</a>;
<a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [PCA] Dandelion follow-up & Phragmites</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">One thing about the USDA PLANTS database is that you have to understand how its data layers work.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For example, if you go to
<i>Taraxacum officinale</i> (the genus and species for Common Dandelion), you will get a distribution map for the genus/species. Note that at the top of the screen there is an indication of the Native Status.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> At the genus/species level, this taxa (<i>Taraxacum officinale</i>) is both Native and Introduced in the Lower 48 states of the USA (L48) because one subspecies
(<i>ceratophorum</i>) is native and the other (<i>officinale</i>) is introduced.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<a href="http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TAOF">http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TAOF</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Below the map of the genus/species, there are separate clickable maps of each subspecies. Using scientific names, these maps and associated information clear
up any confusion as to which taxa is native and which is introduced in the Lower 48 area.**</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> However, there is a different problem which is that PLANTS does not have unique Common Names for each taxa, so both the genus/species and its two
subspecies are all referred to as "Common Dandelion".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">**************************</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I believe there is a somewhat similar issue with the question of the nativity/invasiveness of
<i>Phragmites australis</i> in the sense that the native <i>Phragmites</i> is a subspecies of a genus/species (<i>Phragmites australis</i>).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<i>Phragmites australis</i> subspecies <i>australis</i> is not native in the USA.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It is unfortunate that a common botanical convention is to use just the binomial (genus/species name) when referring to the "typical" subspecies (the one whose
subspecies name is the same name as the species). Thus we say <i>P. australis</i> is invasive when we actually mean
<i>P. australis</i> ssp. <i>australis</i> is invasive.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> And this gets me to the issue that it is important to use trinomials (genus/species plus subspecies or variety) when talking about plants that have subspecies
or varieties even if you only have one of the subspecies in your own area. (Incidentally, this concept also is important when making lists of native plants that serve as alternatives to invasive species.!)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Here is a reference for Phragmites that explains the changes in the ways people have thought about
<i>Phragmites australis</i>. It also gives a key to the subspecies: <a href="http://herbarium.usu.edu/treatments/Phragmites.htm">
http://herbarium.usu.edu/treatments/Phragmites.htm</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">************</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">** Finally, unrelated to the present issue, but something I will mention anyway: there is a different mapping issue with PLANTS which relates to the overlaying
of (1) the dataset for Native vs Introduced which is done in huge polygons (L48 = the entire 48 states of the continental USA as one polygon) on top of the (2) the state by state distribution map of presence/absence of a particular species. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Currently, if you look at Blue Spruce (<i>Picea pungens</i>), it is characterized as Native in L48 (by virtue of its being native in the Rocky Mountain states).
It is mapped as present in quite a few states. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch">http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> When you hit the View Native Status button below the state by state distribution map, the database overlays the nativity status map (Native in L48; Introduced
in Canada) on top. This gives you a map that makes it "appear" that Blue Spruce is native in Massachusetts whereas what PLANTS is trying to show is that it native (somewhere) in the Lower 48 states, but introduced everywhere it is found in Canada!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I have heard that PLANTS database hopes to be getting the funding to fix this glitch.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Cheers,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Charlotte Pyle</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Charlotte Pyle, PhD<br>
Landscape Ecologist<br>
USDA-Natural Resources Conservation Service<br>
344 Merrow Road<br>
Tolland, CT 06084<br>
<br>
phone: (860) 871-4066<br>
fax: (860) 871-4054<br>
email: <a href="mailto:charlotte.pyle@ct.usda.gov">charlotte.pyle@ct.usda.gov</a><br>
<a href="http://www.ct.nrcs.usda.gov/plants.html">www.ct.nrcs.usda.gov/plants.html</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">NOTICE to Hispanic or Women Farmers:
</span></b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If you believe USDA improperly denied you farm loan benefits during 1981-2000, visit
<b><a href="http://www.farmerclaims.gov/">farmerclaims.gov</a></b>.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org">native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]">[mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov">Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [PCA] Dandelion follow-up</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">My last post prompted another listserver to send me a correction to the dandelion comment (please see below). Thank you, Richard. I stand corrected. Perhaps Richard could also let us know how these maps are attributed
(I forgot to ask).</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Meanwhile, I'll take the opportunity to say that, despite their bad rep in some circles, dandelions also have a long-standing reputation as an important part of the herbalists medicine cabinet. But that's a discussion
for the Medicinal Plant Working Group list!</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Thanks, Patricia</span> <br>
<br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.<br>
Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife Service-International Affairs<br>
Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance<br>
4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110<br>
Arlington, VA 22203<br>
703-358-1708 x1753<br>
FAX: 703-358-2276<br>
<br>
Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants. <br>
<<a href="http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal">www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal</a>><br>
<br>
Follow International Affairs<br>
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<br>
<span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:purple">----- Forwarded by Patricia De Angelis/ARL/R9/FWS/DOI on 08/29/2012 11:49 AM -----</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">"Richard Old" <<a href="mailto:rold@pullman.com">rold@pullman.com</a>></span></b><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">08/29/2012 11:38 AM</span>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><<a href="mailto:Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov">Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov</a>></span>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Patricia:</span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><br>
The link which you sent to the lists reflects the typically outdated status of the USDA PLANTS site. </span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><br>
What is referred to there as Taraxacum officinale ssp. ceratophorum is now considered a separate native species (T. ceratophorum). </span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><br>
Please note the attached distribution maps.</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">
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Richard</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><br>
Richard R. Old, Ph.D.</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">
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XID Services, Inc.</span> <u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><br>
</span></u><a href="http://www.xidservices.com/"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">www.xidservices.com</span></a>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><br>
800 872 2943</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">
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509 332 2989</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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