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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I will make the following comment from the
perspective of one who works in both the plant and animal systematics fields:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For now, we’re stuck with them, but
really, the plant systematists need to make an effort to rid the system of
these trinomials (both subspecies and varieties, for goodness sakes!), by
elevating entities such as the <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Taraxacum</span></i>
subspecies to species (also <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Phragmites,
Achillea</span></i>, etc.) as warranted, and synonymizing them where not
warranted (no way reliably to discern them). These populations behave
genetically like what zoosystematists call biological species (<i><span
style='font-style:italic'>á la</span></i> Ernst Mayr), a concept that has the
appearance of somehow never having caught on with botanists. One can certainly
point to all sorts of difficult cases and imperfections in the use of the biological
species paradigm, but I still think it would be an improvement over the mess of
infraspecific taxa that now so heavily burdens plant taxonomy. The botanists
need to “get with the program”. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now as for defining “native”
and “non-native” – not something I wish to rant about at the
moment!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>James C. Trager, Ph. D.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Biologist - Naturalist<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Shaw Nature Reserve<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><st1:address w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on"><font size=3
color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>P.O.
Box</span></font></st1:Street><font color=navy><span style='color:navy'> 38</span></font></st1:address><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Gray <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Summit</st1:City>
<st1:State w:st="on">MO</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">63039</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>636-451-3512 ext. 6002<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Pyle, Charlotte - NRCS, <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tolland</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">CT</st1:State></st1:place><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 29, 2012
2:13 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov;
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org; native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [PCA] Dandelion
follow-up & Phragmites</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>One thing about the
USDA PLANTS database is that you have to understand how its data layers work.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>For example, if you
go to <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Taraxacum officinale</span></i> (the
genus and species for Common Dandelion), you will get a distribution map for
the genus/species. Note that at the top of the screen there is an
indication of the Native Status.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> At the
genus/species level, this taxa (<i><span style='font-style:italic'>Taraxacum
officinale</span></i>) is both Native and Introduced in the Lower 48 states of
the USA (L48) because one subspecies (<i><span style='font-style:italic'>ceratophorum</span></i>)
is native and the other (<i><span style='font-style:italic'>officinale</span></i>)
is introduced.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> <a
href="http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TAOF">http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TAOF</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> Below the map
of the genus/species, there are separate clickable maps of each
subspecies. Using scientific names, these maps and associated information
clear up any confusion as to which taxa is native and which is introduced in
the Lower 48 area.**</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>
However, there is a different
problem which is that PLANTS does not have unique Common Names for each taxa,
so both the genus/species and its two subspecies are all referred to as
"Common Dandelion".</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>**************************</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I believe there is a
somewhat similar issue with the question of the nativity/invasiveness of <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>Phragmites australis</span></i> in the sense that the
native <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Phragmites</span></i> is a subspecies
of a genus/species (<i><span style='font-style:italic'>Phragmites australis</span></i>).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>Phragmites australis</span></i> subspecies <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>australis</span></i> is not native in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:place></st1:country-region>.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It is unfortunate
that a common botanical convention is to use just the binomial (genus/species
name) when referring to the "typical" subspecies (the one whose
subspecies name is the same name as the species). Thus we say <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>P. australis</span></i> is invasive when we actually
mean <i><span style='font-style:italic'>P. australis</span></i> ssp. <i><span
style='font-style:italic'>australis</span></i> is invasive.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> And this
gets me to the issue that it is important to use trinomials (genus/species plus
subspecies or variety) when talking about plants that have subspecies or
varieties even if you only have one of the subspecies in your own area.
(Incidentally, this concept also is important when making lists of native
plants that serve as alternatives to invasive species.!)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> Here is a
reference for Phragmites that explains the changes in the ways people have
thought about <i><span style='font-style:italic'>Phragmites australis</span></i>.
It also gives a key to the subspecies: <a
href="http://herbarium.usu.edu/treatments/Phragmites.htm">http://herbarium.usu.edu/treatments/Phragmites.htm</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>************</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>** Finally,
unrelated to the present issue, but something I will mention anyway:
there is a different mapping issue with PLANTS which relates to the overlaying
of (1) the dataset for Native vs Introduced which is done in huge polygons (L48
= the entire 48 states of the continental USA as one polygon) on top of the (2)
the state by state distribution map of presence/absence of a particular
species. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> Currently,
if you look at Blue Spruce (<i><span style='font-style:italic'>Picea pungens</span></i>),
it is characterized as Native in L48 (by virtue of its being native in the <st1:place
w:st="on">Rocky Mountain states</st1:place>). It is mapped as present in
quite a few states. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><a
href="http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch">http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> When you hit
the View Native Status button below the state by state distribution map, the
database overlays the nativity status map (Native in L48; Introduced in <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region>) on
top. This gives you a map that makes it "appear" that Blue
Spruce is native in Massachusetts whereas what PLANTS is trying to show is that
it native (somewhere) in the Lower 48 states, but introduced everywhere it is
found in Canada!</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>I have heard
that PLANTS database hopes to be getting the funding to fix this glitch.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Cheers,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> Charlotte
Pyle</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Charlotte Pyle, PhD<br>
Landscape Ecologist<br>
USDA-Natural Resources Conservation Service<br>
<st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">344 Merrow Road</st1:address></st1:Street><br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tolland</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">CT</st1:State>
<st1:PostalCode w:st="on">06084</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><br>
<br>
phone: (860) 871-4066<br>
fax: (860) 871-4054<br>
email: charlotte.pyle@ct.usda.gov<br>
www.ct.nrcs.usda.gov/plants.html</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=1 color="#1f497d" face=Arial><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D;font-weight:bold'>NOTICE
to Hispanic or Women Farmers: </span></font></b><font size=1 color="#1f497d"
face=Arial><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#1F497D'>If you
believe USDA improperly denied you farm loan benefits during 1981-2000, visit <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'><a href="http://www.farmerclaims.gov/">farmerclaims.gov</a></span></b>.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 29, 2012
11:57 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [PCA] Dandelion follow-up</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>My last post
prompted another listserver to send me a correction to the dandelion comment
(please see below). Thank you, Richard. I stand corrected. Perhaps Richard
could also let us know how these maps are attributed (I forgot to ask).</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>Meanwhile, I'll take the
opportunity to say that, despite their bad rep in some circles, dandelions also
have a long-standing reputation as an important part of the herbalists medicine
cabinet. But that's a discussion for the Medicinal Plant Working Group list!</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font face=Arial><span style='font-family:Arial'>Thanks, Patricia</span></font>
<br>
<br>
<font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Patricia
S. De Angelis, Ph.D.<br>
Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife
Service-International Affairs<br>
Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Alliance</st1:place></st1:City><br>
<st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110</st1:address></st1:Street><br>
<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Arlington</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">VA</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">22203</st1:PostalCode></st1:place><br>
703-358-1708 x1753<br>
FAX: 703-358-2276<br>
<br>
Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants. <br>
<<a href="http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal">www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal</a>><br>
<br>
Follow International Affairs<br>
> on Twitter </span></font><a href="http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl"><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl<br>
> on Facebook </span></font></a><a
href="http://www.facebook.com/USFWS_InternationalAffairs"><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>http://www.facebook.com/USFWS_InternationalAffairs</span></font></a>
<br>
<font size=1 color=purple face=Arial><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
Arial;color:purple'>----- Forwarded by Patricia De Angelis/ARL/R9/FWS/DOI on
08/29/2012 11:49 AM -----</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>"Richard Old" <<a
href="mailto:rold@pullman.com">rold@pullman.com</a>></span></font></b><font
size=1 face=Arial><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=1 face=Arial><span style='font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial'>08/29/2012
11:38 AM</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 face=Arial><span style='font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:Arial'><<a href="mailto:Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov">Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov</a>></span></font>
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</span></font><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Patricia:</span></font> <font size=2 color=blue
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><br>
The link which you sent to the lists reflects the typically outdated status of
the USDA PLANTS site. </span></font> <font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><br>
What is referred to there as Taraxacum officinale ssp. ceratophorum is now
considered a separate native species (T. ceratophorum). </span></font> <font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'><br>
Please note the attached distribution maps.</span></font> <font size=2
color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'><br>
Richard</span></font> <br>
<font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'><br>
Richard R. Old, Ph.D.</span></font> <font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><br>
XID Services, Inc.</span></font> <u><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><br>
</span></font></u><a href="http://www.xidservices.com/"><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>www.xidservices.com</span></font></a>
<font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'><br>
800 872 2943</span></font> <font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><br>
509 332 2989</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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