In the case of Phragmites australis, there are several genetic strains. Some are native to the United States, but there is a European strain that arrived here that has spread very rapidly. It has displaced stands of the native strains and has established in areas where Phragmites didn't used to grow. The genetic strains are all the same species, but they behave differently.<div>
<br></div><div>I agree that there is a lack of standardized definition of what an invasive species is, but in most definitions being non-native is part of the definition. Defining "native" might be more difficult. Black locust, Robinia pseudoacacia, originally had a limited distribution in the Appalachian mountains, but it was widely spread to other parts of the US for fencing and other purposes. So it is a species that is native to the United States, but not native to certain parts of the US. Personally I try to use the term "agressive" when referring to native species that spread quickly and "invasive" when referring to non-native species that spread quickly to try and avoid confusion.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Sylvan<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Teal Edelen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Teal.Edelen@nfwf.org" target="_blank">Teal.Edelen@nfwf.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">One of the issues with invasion ecology is the lack of a standardized definition of what an “invasive species” is!
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If the plant was non-native, it would have to be described as such. It is possible for a native plant to be “invasive”, as this is speaking to the ability or
actuality of the plant taking over habitat and creating monoculture. So, in short, soley using the term “invasive” is not designating a plant as exotic or otherwise.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hope this helps.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Teal<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Layton Beyfuss<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 27, 2012 9:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Katy Cummings; <a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [PCA] Native Phragmites Data<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi All<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I am a bit confused and hope you can enlighten me. I thought that the basic definition of an invasive plant was that it had to be exotic. There are many native
plants that create almost solid monocultures such as common goldenrod yet can it be “undesirable” at any density? . Poison ivy can overrun entire areas but I have never seen it listed as invasive.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Bob <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Katy Cummings<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 20, 2012 9:28 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target="_blank">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [PCA] Native Phragmites Data<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Fellow Conservationists-<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I work for The Nature Conservancy (TNC) in Door County, WI. My main project this summer has been mapping exotic and native stands of Phragmites (<i>Phragmites australis</i> and
<i>Phragmites australis americanus</i>) throughout TNC properties in Door County. I have some questions and experiences to share with you as our organization tries to learn more about the native/exotic Phragmites issue.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We all know what havoc the exotic Phragmites subspecies can wreak on an ecosystem, but do we know anything about the native subspecies?
<b>Is there any research out there showing that the native Phragmites can behave as aggressively as the exotic?
</b>In Door County, the native usually grows in scattered to moderate densities along with other wetland plants, with a few patches showing denser concentrations. There are a few areas where the native has reached undesirable “dense” concentrations, but as
of yet we don’t know why.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>What other plants are associated with the native Phragmites?</b> TNC will be setting up monitoring plots soon on some of our native patches, and when we get that data I’ll send it to any interested people
from this list. The only list I’ve been able to find is from a chapter by Laura Meyerson et al. in “Invasions in North American Salt Marshes” entitled “Phragmites australis in Eastern North America: A Historical and Ecological Perspective”. Does anyone know
of other lists from different regions of the U.S.?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Are there any patterns to where native Phragmites is found?
</b>During my mapping of the plant in Door County, I’ve generally found native Phragmites set back from the edge of waterways and growing in more marshy areas.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>What have you all seen as far as size of patches, number of patches, location, rate of spread, etc. of the native Phragmites in your area?
</b>Most of the wetlands in Door County are fed by alkaline ground water discharge as a result of movement through the underlying dolomitic bedrock. I assume that because of these alkaline conditions we have a higher population of native Phragmites than perhaps
other regions of the Midwest. Is this true? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To help answer these questions, The Nature Conservancy’s Door Peninsula office has temporarily halted eradication measures of native lineages of
<i>Phragmites</i>. We are in the process of developing long-term monitoring plots in native
<i>Phragmites </i>stands throughout Nature Conservancy holdings in Door County, WI. The goals of this monitoring project will be to assess the following questions:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><i>1.</i><i><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span></i>Under what conditions do native stands become aggressive?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><i>2.</i><i><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span></i>At what threshold is a native stand damaging to the community? <u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><i>3.</i><i><span style="font-size:7.0pt">
</span></i>What plants are commonly associated with native <i>Phragmites </i>in the Great Lakes region?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you are interested, I can send you a more detailed methodology for our monitoring project, including what parameters we will be sampling.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As an additional note, I’d encourage people to mention there is a native variety of Phragmites and differentiate between the two strains in any publications or documents.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I look forward to your input!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks again,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Katy Cummings<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:katy.e.cummings@gmail.com" target="_blank">katy.e.cummings@gmail.com</a><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></p><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Katherine E. Cummings<br>
Door Peninsula Conservation Intern<br>
The Nature Conservancy<br>
Sturgeon Bay, WI<u></u><u></u></p>
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