[PCA] [APWG] Native Phragmites Data

Wed Aug 29 08:05:24 CDT 2012

Julie's point is well-stated and underscores how important it is to 
consider the context within which these terms have been defined. 

Terms are defined for specific purposes, to accomplish specific goals, 
mandates, or to define monetary outlays or requirements.  And this is 
especially interesting in the sciences - because we want to fit natural 
processes and organisms into manmade boxes so that we can discuss, 
control, compare, destroy, conserve them. When you move from one context 
to the next, the same term may not mean the same thing. 

Case in point: The term "endangered" 

In the United States, there is a legal definition of the term for the 
purposes of the Endangered Species Act.  This definition is very specific 
and differs from the layman's term. It also differs from the same term 
used in other conservation contexts, such as that as defined by the IUCN (
International Union for Conservation of Nature).  These definitions serve 
to define and delimit the term so that everyone is "talking" about the 
same thing.

The problem comes in when we create legal definitions for words that 
already exist in the English language and then we wonder why the general 
public (and even experts) "misuse" the terms.

To the extent that the alien invasive species movement is aimed squarely 
at non-native species, they have defined these pre-existing terms to 
describe their goal/role within that circle. Because the term invasive has 
been officially defined an a non-native in that arena, it has necessitated 
devising alternate definitions for native invaseives. Here's a great 
example from NRCS: 

Opportunistic Native Plant 
A native plant that is able to take advantage of disturbance to the soil 
or existing vegetation to spread quickly and out-compete the other plants 
on the disturbed site. 

How many people think dandelions are invasive?  Now, how many think they 
are non-native?  You might be surprised to learn that this renowned 
"invader" of our pristine lawns "comes in" native, too (
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TAOFC). Opportunistic, weeds, 
fast spreaders, noxious ...call it what you will, some of our natives 
(including poison ivy) are that, too.

Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.
Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife 
Service-International Affairs
Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance
4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110
Arlington, VA  22203
703-358-1708 x1753
FAX: 703-358-2276

Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants. 

<www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal>

Follow International Affairs
> on Twitter  http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl
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"Randall, John L" <jrandall at email.unc.edu> 
08/28/2012 07:05 PM

To
Julie Knudson <jknudson at tamariskcoalition.org>, 
"Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov" <Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov>
cc
"native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org" 
<native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org>, 
"apwg at lists.plantconservation.org" <apwg at lists.plantconservation.org>, 
"Katy Cummings" <katy.e.cummings at gmail.com>
Subject
RE: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data

Thank you Julie. You said everything that I have been composing in my 
head! I will also add that ?invasive? ? as you define it ? is also the 
standard international usage. 
Johnny Randall

Johnny Randall, Ph.D.
Director of Conservation Programs
North Carolina Botanical Garden
CB 3375
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Chapel Hill NC 27599
ncbg.unc.edu
(W) 919-962-0522
(C) 919-923-0100

From: apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org 
[mailto:apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Julie 
Knudson
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:57 PM
To: Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov
Cc: native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org; 
apwg at lists.plantconservation.org; Katy Cummings
Subject: Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data

I would throw in a couple more cents here...

To Bob:

"An invasive species is a non-native species whose introduction does or is 
likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human, animal, 
or plant health." - National Invasive Species Council

"Invasive Plant: A plant that is both non-native and able to establish on 
many sites, grow quickly, and spread to the point of disrupting plant 
communities or ecosystems. Note: From the Presidential Executive Order 
13112 (February 1999): 'An invasive species is defined as a species that 
is 1) non-native (or alien) to the ecosystem under consideration and 2) 
whose introduction causes or is likely to cause economic or environmental 
harm or harm to human health.' In contrast to item 2) of the Executive 
Order, which includes plants invasive in agricultural settings, the 
Connecticut Invasive Plant Working Group lists non-native plants as 
invasive only if they invade minimally managed (natural) areas." - Natural 
Resource Conservation Service

I would just be careful (depending on what circles you are speaking in) in 
saying that a native plant can be 'invasive', as officially I think 
'invasive species' are defined as non-natives. It is just semantics, but I 
might argue that native plants can be 'weedy' or 'aggressive', but not 
technically 'invasive'.

To Katy - How are you addressing the potential native-invasive Phragmites 
hybrid issue? I would be interested in hearing more about your project - 
sounds interesting! 

Julie

Julie Knudson
Tamarisk Coalition
970-256-7400

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:25 AM, <Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov> wrote:

Cheers, Bob! 

My two cents: 
A native can most definitely be an invasive.  Teal and Mark's comments 
elucidate that issue well. 
I'm not sure what list you might be referring to, but from what I 
understand of the Federal Noxious Weed list, I believe that plants that 
are either naturalized or have completely overrun the US will not end up 
on that list. I believe that list tends to include species that are in the 
earlier stages of invasion where prevention of further influxes can still 
make a difference for slowing the spread. I also doubt it would be on any 
state list - those often tend to be geared to non-natives and ornamental 
plants - of which poison ivy is neither. 

It seems like poison ivy falls into a strange no-man's land - as a native, 
it doesn't seem to fit on the PCA ALien Plant WOrking Group listserve - 
yet the expertise on that list may be more appropriate (versus this 
general native plant listserve) because they are the folks with specific 
insight on invasive species biology. 

I wonder if any of the National Park Service Exotic Plant Management Teams 
have identified it as among their top ten target taxa in any of their 
regions?   

-Patricia 

Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.
Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife 
Service-International Affairs
Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance
4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110
Arlington, VA  22203
703-358-1708 x1753
FAX: 703-358-2276

Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants. 

<www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal>

Follow International Affairs
> on Twitter  http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl
> on Facebook   http://www.facebook.com/USFWS_InternationalAffairs 

Robert Layton Beyfuss <rlb14 at cornell.edu> 
Sent by: native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org 
08/27/2012 09:45 AM 

To
Katy Cummings <katy.e.cummings at gmail.com>, "
native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org" <
native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org> 
cc

Subject
Re: [PCA] Native Phragmites Data

Hi All 
I am a bit confused and hope you can enlighten me. I thought that the 
basic definition of an invasive plant was that it had to be exotic.  There 
are many native plants that create almost solid monocultures such as 
common goldenrod yet can it be ?undesirable? at any density? . Poison ivy 
can overrun entire areas but I have never seen it listed as invasive. 
Bob 

From: native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org [mailto:
native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Katy 
Cummings
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:28 PM
To: native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: [PCA] Native Phragmites Data 

Fellow Conservationists- 

I work for The Nature Conservancy (TNC) in Door County, WI.  My main 
project this summer has been mapping exotic and native stands of 
Phragmites (Phragmites australis and Phragmites australis americanus) 
throughout TNC properties in Door County.  I have some questions and 
experiences to share with you as our organization tries to learn more 
about the native/exotic Phragmites issue. 

We all know what havoc the exotic Phragmites subspecies can wreak on an 
ecosystem, but do we know anything about the native subspecies?   Is there 
any research out there showing that the native Phragmites can behave as 
aggressively as the exotic?  In Door County, the native usually grows in 
scattered to moderate densities along with other wetland plants, with a 
few patches showing denser concentrations.  There are a few areas where 
the native has reached undesirable ?dense? concentrations, but as of yet 
we don?t know why. 

What other plants are associated with the native Phragmites?  TNC will be 
setting up monitoring plots soon on some of our native patches, and when 
we get that data I?ll send it to any interested people from this list. The 
only list I?ve been able to find is from a chapter by Laura Meyerson et 
al. in ?Invasions in North American Salt Marshes? entitled ?Phragmites 
australis in Eastern North America: A Historical and Ecological 
Perspective?.  Does anyone know of other lists from different regions of 
the U.S.? 

Are there any patterns to where native Phragmites is found?  During my 
mapping of the plant in Door County, I?ve generally found native 
Phragmites set back from the edge of waterways and growing in more marshy 
areas. 

What have you all seen as far as size of patches, number of patches, 
location, rate of spread, etc. of the native Phragmites in your area?  
Most of the wetlands in Door County are fed by alkaline ground water 
discharge as a result of movement through the underlying dolomitic 
bedrock.  I assume that because of these alkaline conditions we have a 
higher population of native Phragmites than perhaps other regions of the 
Midwest.  Is this true? 

To help answer these questions, The Nature Conservancy?s Door Peninsula 
office has temporarily halted eradication measures of native lineages of 
Phragmites.  We are in the process of developing long-term monitoring 
plots in native Phragmites stands throughout Nature Conservancy holdings 
in Door County, WI.  The goals of this monitoring project will be to 
assess the following questions: 
1.      Under what conditions do native stands become aggressive? 
2.      At what threshold is a native stand damaging to the community? 
3.      What plants are commonly associated with native Phragmites in the 
Great Lakes region? 
If you are interested, I can send you a more detailed methodology for our 
monitoring project, including what parameters we will be sampling. 

As an additional note, I?d encourage people to mention there is a native 
variety of Phragmites and differentiate between the two strains in any 
publications or documents. 

I look forward to your input! 

Thanks again, 
Katy Cummings 
katy.e.cummings at gmail.com 

-- 
Katherine E. Cummings
Door Peninsula Conservation Intern
The Nature Conservancy
Sturgeon Bay, WI_______________________________________________
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