<head><style>body{font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}p{margin:0px;}</style><title>Re: [MPWG] White list & invasive plants
issues...</title></head><body>Hopefully Patricia's findings are correct and this possibly could result in some minor correction of policy. I of course cannot speak to that as yet unknown outcome.<br><br>What I can speak to is this. There mere fact that one piece of regulatory policy change with regards to one industry and one issue has resulted in two days worth of discussion should be clear indication that the regulatory mechanisms in place in our society have grown to be cumbersome and a burden to ordinary citizens who must not only pay for these programs but also be held accountable in following them. I daresay none of us know of one attorney, judge, or officer of the law that knows every statute, section of penal code, regulation and subsection thereof, or ordinance (multiplied by 3; U.S., State, Municipality) on the books in this country. Well, if ignorance of the law is no excuse...... you get my point.<br><br>This situation brings to mind two of my recent favorite quotes:<br><br><br><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="">"I need someone to
protect me from all the measures they take in order to protect me." </b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"> - Banksy, street artist</p><br><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b style="">"If you have ten
thousand regulations, you destroy all respect for the law. "</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b style=""> </b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">- Winston Churchill</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">On a more positive note, it's good to see some input and discussion from some of those on the list that we rarely have the benefit of hearing from.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">-Robin<br></p>
<br><br><br><br><br><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 0px; border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255);">-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Roy Upton <herbal@got.net>
<br>Sent: Oct 25, 2010 9:39 PM
<br>To: Steven Foster <sfoster@stevenfoster.com>
<br>Cc: mpwg@lists.plantconservation.org
<br>Subject: Re: [MPWG] White list & invasive plants issues...
<br><br>
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<div>I think it is important to understand that for regulatory
purposes an invasive is any non-native that interferes with something
of economic value to state or federal regulators. Those exotics that
have not caused any type of economically significant detriment are
left to multiply, morph, mix with natives, and do whatever they are
going to do. Of course, biologists would get into academic arguments
as to what constitutes a native. However, where the rubber meets the
road, at least in my limited experience, are the regulations and laws
that are put into effect against "invasives", usually
precipitated by another country's prohibition against the species or
an ability of gain some advantage from a trade
perspective.-Roy</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">Yes, how do you define native? I would
contend that the Panax quinquefolius germplasm wild harvested from the
Ozarks and supplied to Bob as part of his Panax genetic collections
represents non-native, alien genetic material when planted in as part
of Bob's collections in upstate New York. This Ozark Panax germplasm
did not evolve in upstate New York. Political boundaries are
irrelevant. Similarly, well meaning folks have planted lots of
Echinacea purpurea along highways in Northwest Arkansas. Hence, they
have planted a native plant to be sure, however the germplasm
originated from European horticulture. These plants, while, the same
species, are quite different morphologically from the indigenous plant
material in this County. I have argued that we should be using
propagules from the ACTUAL native plant material. So back to the
question what is a native plant? How does one legislate
this?</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">On the issue of Chinese medicinal plants,
the fact is East Asia has been the source of horticultural
introductions to the West for nearly 200 years. A vast majority of
Chinese plants now grown for clinical specialty markets have been in
Western horticulture for many decades. They are not new introductions.
Many rock garden plants of Asian origin are vicariously Chinese
medicinal plants. And it goes both ways. There are many European and
N. American plants in Asia and Europe. Lycium chinense grows at the
edge of my yard, not-planted, not tamed. Japanese honeysuckle clambers
through the understory. Hedera helix is pulled with each weeding of
the garden. Perilla frutescens grows where ever it pleases. They are
here because they are opportunistic, just like the Sassafras and
Juniperus virginiana. They are all here because when this little town
of healing springs, Eureka Springs, Arkansas, was "discovered"
in 1877, the opportunistic white people clear cut every living woody
plant in this forest, turning it into muddy wasteland as quick as they
could. It took less than a year for the population to go from zero to
5,000. If we look at the roots of this issue rather than the minutiae
of species and where they originate, the problem begins with habitat
and plant community destruction, exacerbated by factors like the
movie, Bambi which created a couple of generations of Americans who
think deer populations are warm fuzzy, eyelash-batting, cuddly
creatures which should be "conserved and protected." Bring
back the cougar and the wolf.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">How does anyone define what is native,
what is alien and what political border can be crossed where and when?
How does one regulate or legislate any of this?</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">Best regards,</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">Steven Foster</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">Eureka Springs, Arkansas</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><br>
Sent from my iPhone</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><br>
On Oct 25, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Robert Layton Beyfuss <<a href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu">rlb14@cornell.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">Hi Ed</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">There is really no good defintion of what
a "native" plant is. Native to where? Mexico or Texas?<br>
Minnesota or Canada? Northern PA or southern PA? CA or NY? The
mountains of NC or the outer banks? This is a big country with lots of
different ecosystems that differ as radically from each other as Asian
ecosystems do from ours. Native since when? since the glaciers moved
stuff around? Since Native Americans moved plants around? since
Europeans brought plants with them here in the 1600's? Since
temperatures warmed up a couple of degres? should we be prohibited
from growing exotic medicinal plants? The whole native
versus exotic argument is xenophobic BS. There are plenty of
exotic plants that don't need extra inputs to grow here just
fine.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">Requiring people to purchase only native
plants is like requiring us to buy only American made goods? Most of
our foods are exotic. Should we only eat local "native"
food? The average working class American cannot afford to shop
at the local farmers market. They have to shop at Wallmart with 85%
Chinese made goods. Makes no sense at all. Americans used to
have freedom to choose what they wanted, now Big Brother chooses for
all of us.</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">Bob</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="">
<hr></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1"><b>From:</b></font> <a href="mailto:mpwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1">mpwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</font></a><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1"> [</font><a href="mailto:mpwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1">mpwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</font></a><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1">] On Behalf Of Edward
Fletcher [</font><a target="_blank" href="mailto:efletcher@skybest.com"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1">efletcher@skybest.com</font></a><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1">]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 25, 2010 12:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b></font> <a href="mailto:mpwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1">mpwg@lists.plantconservation.org</font></a><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1">;</font> <a target="_blank" href=""><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1">michael.d.ward@aphis.usda.gov</font></a><font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [MPWG] White list & invasive plants
issues...</font><br>
<font color="#000000" face="Tahoma" size="-1"></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><font color="#008200" size="+1"><i><b>While I do understand the 'invasive plants'
concern, reiterated when I drive through the South and see kudzu
climbing over 100' pine trees and choking out acres of plants, I know
the horticultural/ornamental market is driving this demand. It has
always been the desire to have plants from 'exotic' places rather than
'native' plants in one's landscape. Then even if not invasive,
there are inherent problems that come along with this,
i.e., extra water in dryer climates, pest issues, diseases,
etc.</b></i></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><font size="+1"><i><b>So it seems to me a
companion list to this 'white list' is a 'native plant list' that is
allowed. Many counties and some states only allow or require
indigenous plant species to be planted. Bravo, Bravo!!! This makes the
most sense to me, then we can still go to the botanical gardens to see
exotic plants perhaps.</b></i></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><font size="+1"><i><b>Notes to remember:
We have invasives that are native also. Many hybrids of native species
are available for diversity in the
landscape.</b></i></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><font color="#008200" size="+1"><i><b><br>
Genuinely,<br>
Edward J. Fletcher</b></i></font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""> </blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> "</font><a href="mailto:mpwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">mpwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">" <</font><a href="mailto:mpwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">mpwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 10/24/2010 3:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> "</font><a href="mailto:mpwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">mpwg@lists.plantconservation.org</font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">" <</font><a href="mailto:mpwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">mpwg@lists.plantconservation.org</font></a><font face="Tahoma" size="-1">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [MPWG] Fwd:</font><br>
<font face="Tahoma" size="-1"></font>
<blockquote><br>
<br>
<b>"WHITE LIST" OF AUTHORIZED PLANTS (Canada and
U.S.)</b><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>The U.S. and Canadian governments are planning to
introduce a "white list" of plants that are allowed entry
into each country under a joint Canada-USA greenhouse certification
program. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the
Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA) are requesting comments from
stakeholders on a proposal to replace the current list of prohibited
plants with this new list of allowed plants. What this means is that
if a plant is not on the allowed list it cannot enter the U.S. from
Canada or vice versa. Many thousands of plants including many herbs
will be barred entry under the proposal.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>This change is highly significant for both countries
because it appears to be a first attempt to implement a controversal
"white list" approach to the control of cross-border plant
movement. The proposed "white list" is far more restrictive
than the current "black list" of prohibited plants that has
been in place since the inception of the binational Greenhouse
Certification Program in 1996. The proposed "white list" of
allowed plants includes less than 1000 plant genera, out of over
12,600 genera of flowering plants known to man. The current
"black list" of prohibited plants has fewer than 100
genera.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>Some suggest that the powerful anti-invasives movement in
the U.S. is behind the push to introduce "white lists" of
plants that are allowed into the country. While invasives are a
problem for both countries, the new list will affect thousands of
plants already in the horticultural trade, and will limit the
introduction of new plants to gardeners.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>For gardeners, it is worth reflecting a moment on how many
new plants that you have enjoyed growing over the past 10-20 years,
and how many of them might not have been available to you had this
"white list" been in place.</blockquote>
<blockquote><br></blockquote>
<blockquote>Gardeners, herbalists, commercial growers, and the
gardening and herbal media are encouraged to submit comments.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><font color="#cc0033"><b>The deadline for comments is
October 31, 2010.</b></font><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><b>United States</b>: Email your comments to Michael D.
Ward, Senior Accreditation Projects Manager, USDA-APHIS-PPQ (<a href="">michael.d.ward@aphis.usda.gov)</a><br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><b>Canada</b>: Email your comments to the CFIA (<a href="">horticulture@inspection.gc.ca</a>)<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>The relevant documents, including the proposed lists of
authorized genera and families, are available <a href="http://www.richters.com/newdisplay.cgi?page=Issues/documents.html">
here</a>.<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><tt>--<br>
\_\ RICHTERS HERBS<br>
/ / Goodwood, ON, L0C 1A0, Canada<br>
\_\ Tel +1.905.640.6677 Fax +1.905.640.6641<br>
/_/ </tt> <a target="_blank" href=""><tt>http://www.richters.com</tt></a><br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<blockquote type="cite" cite=""><br>
<br>
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information contained in posts is not intended nor implied to be a
substitute for professional medical advice relative to your specific
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information that is discussed on this list should be carefully
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professional. Posts do not reflect any official opinions or positions
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<div><br></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>--
</pre></x-sigsep>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Helvetica" size="-2">Roy Upton RH,
DAyu</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Helvetica" size="-2">Executive
Director, American Herbal Pharmacopoeia</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Helvetica" size="-2"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Helvetica" size="-2"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Helvetica" size="-2"><b>Shipping
address</b></font></div>
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Lane</font></div>
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US</font></div>
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</zzzbody>
</zzzhtml></sfoster@stevenfoster.com></herbal@got.net></blockquote></body><pre>
Robin Alton Suggs
MoonBranch Botanicals
5294 Yellow Creek Road
Robbinsville, North Carolina 28771
USA
Telephone: 828.479.2788
Email: moonbranch@earthlink.net
www.moonbranch.com
&
www.localharvest.org/store/M16074
Member:
Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project; Farm Partner
Green Products Alliance
North Carolina Consortium on Natural Medicines
North Carolina Goodness Grows/NCDA&CS
Southwestern North Carolina RC&D Council
United Plant Savers
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it"
- Matthew 7:13 </pre>