[MPWG] ginseng poaching program

[Robert Layton Beyfuss]

My solution to all of this is indeed “out of the box”. I propose a complete deregulation of all aspects of ginseng harvest and trade at all levels of government. Yes, a throwback to perhaps 100 years ago when this indeed was the case. There is no set of regulations anywhere that can fully protect the species in all situations and even if there was, there is no possible way to realistically enforce them. If ginseng has value, as it surely does, human beings will find a way to preserve it for our own self interest. Poachers don’t think they are stealing their future or threatening the existence of a rare plant, they are just stealing something from a government entity in the case of parks and public property, or they are robbing a landowner of something the landowner could care less about. If private landowners have ginseng on their property and care about it, it is not their responsibility to protect it if they want to, just as they would protect their timber from theft. In the case of the Cape Cod fisherman, referenced several times below, who cannot grow codfish in the ocean themselves,  the only possible protection of the wild fish species is to ban or restrict  harvest. Ginseng is a plant. A tricky plant to grow, indeed, in a forest situation, but nevertheless a plant that at one time was pretty common in North American forests. This plant is already grown in mass quantities in fields in Wisconsin and Canada. I would contend that the main barrier towards growing it more extensively in the woods is the regulatory structure that it must comply with. Few (no) agricultural crops have to deal with the mass of red tape that ginseng culture and marketing entails. I can sell tomatoes from my garden to anybody I want. To sell ginseng from my garden to a Chinese citizen I have to have it “certified” on at least four or five levels of bureaucracy at significant levels of complexity.  And what advantage does this regulatory mess confer?  Where is the evidence that current regulatory policies have succeeded in protecting the species?  Where have regulatory protected ginseng populations rebounded to such an extent that they are no longer threatened?  Is not the actual evidence completely contradictory to that notion?  People may speculate that ginseng would already be extinct if not for the regulations, but where is the evidence to support that notion?  Speculation proves nothing.
The US Fish and Wildlife service now acknowledges that they have no way to distinguish intentionally grown wild simulated ginseng from “wild” ginseng, therefore, what exactly are they trying to protect? They cannot say what percentage of “certified” wild ginseng is really wild. Their regulations are protecting only the “language” of a treaty that we have signed and nothing more. Are they trying to protect something that I have been growing intentionally for the past 30 years? If so, I don’t want their help.  If they are trying to protect something that is rapidly disappearing on public lands, the only way to effectively do so is to post a cop in every hollow in all of ginseng’s range.
The real solution is to encourage enough woodland cultivation to lower the price to a level where it would not pay anyone to hike five miles back on public land to find a wild patch. Many of us have heard that ginseng has been hunted to extinction in China generations ago, with the reason given that it was unprotected. The facts are quite different. Hunting ginseng in China at times carried a death penalty. Ginseng disappeared in China due to loss of suitable habitat. That also happened in the northeastern US when 85% of the forestland was removed a century ago. Today that forestland is returning and so can ginseng if we would just give it a chance.
I am not some right wing extremist who thinks that regulations and government protection of natural resources is wrong.  I am not a pure capitalist who believes the government should stay out of business, period. My argument is for ginseng conservation and conservation means “wise use” . The current regulatory structure does not work. It is time to think out of the box.


From: MPWG [mailto:mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of MoonBranch Botanicals
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 2:10 PM
To: Edward Fletcher; 'Roy Upton'
Cc: 'Ikhlas Khan'; mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org; 'Stefan Gafner'; 'Mark Blumenthal'
Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program



Hello Ed, I didn’t get your reply until late last night as I was out re-engineering for the third or fourth night now a support for a tarp cover over an outside workspace. Looks like after today’s work is done it will be night five, which will be interesting considering the weather forecast!

At any rate, I had written a response that I had saved as a draft rather than sending because I wanted to review it with renewed mental clarity before I did so.  I am glad that I did.

So, on to the task at hand. You know, sometimes when working on a project like that tarp outside I often use a set of tools for the work. I have all kinds of tools (some of which I couldn’t begin to find even) and seem to have a certain set that I regularly rely on. Those are kept handily in a tool box. I have used that same set over and over for so long that occasionally come up against a problem that I don’t seem to have the proper tool to handle and wind up thinking to myself “If I only had a tool for that!”. Thing is, months later I’ll be cleaning or searching for something else and stumble upon that very tool I had needed before but didn’t even realize that I had because I had never used it.

I use this tool example to illustrate what I believe to be a stumbling block at times for us humans. Oftentimes I see that we use the same “tools”, be they a process, a system, a methodology or even just a way of thinking for so long that we forget all the other “tools” at our disposal. We truly must be “creatures of habit”.

Sometimes I find that in order to look at things objectively and clearly, one may have to step outside the boundaries of that which they believe to be “real”. In terms of solutions regarding the ginseng poaching dilemma, I suspect there are as many solutions as there are stars in the night sky. Trouble is, as with the tool example, we will never find them if we don’t look. And, we will never look if we do not believe that they are there.

Thinking back to my response to you from last night that I had saved as a draft and when I contrast it with the current response I realize that, in terms of their nature, I have gone from non-specific to vague. There is a reason.

When analyzing the parameters of any project, task at hand or issue and assessing what “tools” are needed to do the job, it may first be wise to understand exactly what “went wrong” with or became broken in that which needs fixing. That said, I believe that a wise place to “start” might be at the beginning.

Keeping that in mind I find myself returning to the question of “why?”. Why do people poach ginseng? Are they just bad people? Are they common thieves?  Are they deranged in-bred white trash rednecks hell bent on wiping out a species? What? You tell me…… Do you know? Does anybody know? If so I would love an answer there. And, if we find, as I suspect, that no one really knows, then don’t you think it wise that we find out? In the process, I also suspect that we’ll discover about ourselves if we really want to save a species from peril or conversely, do we really just want to go through a known, comfortable and expected process.

So with that I will end at a beginning. In searching for a “why” I would ask each of you to consider the following. I have heard it said many times that in order to love, one must first love oneself. With that in mind is it really logical to assume that one species which shows little respect, love or compassion for its own be expected to show the same for another species?

Can someone please speak to this?

- Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Fletcher
Sent: Jan 14, 2014 10:30 PM
To: 'MoonBranch Botanicals' , 'Roy Upton'
Cc: mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org>, 'Ikhlas Khan' , 'Stefan Gafner' , 'Mark Blumenthal'
Subject: RE: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program


Robin,

Glad you decided to chime in.

Points well taken and realized/considered.

Now what are your solutions?

Genuinely,
Edward J. Fletcher
Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
Botanical Division, C.O.O.
828.898.7642
Fax.898.7647
Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net<mailto:Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net>
www.StrategicSourcingInc.net<http://www.StrategicSourcingInc.net>
-----Original Message-----
From: "MoonBranch Botanicals" <moonbranch at earthlink.net<mailto:moonbranch at earthlink.net>>
Sent: 1/14/2014 8:35 PM
To: "Roy Upton" <herbal at got.net<mailto:herbal at got.net>>; "Edward Fletcher" <efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net<mailto:efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net>>
Cc: "mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org>" <mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org>>; "Ikhlas Khan" <ikhan at olemiss.edu<mailto:ikhan at olemiss.edu>>; "Stefan Gafner" <stefan at herbalgram.org<mailto:stefan at herbalgram.org>>; "Mark Blumenthal" <Mark at herbalgram.org<mailto:Mark at herbalgram.org>>
Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program



Okay, so I have to ask, are laws, permits and the authority to levy fines all representative of the best way to protect this resource? If the laws in place worked as intended, there should be more ginseng in the woods now than when the laws were enacted, correct? Is ginseng more plentiful now? Are the forests in better shape? From what I’m seeing and hearing the answer is “No”.

A saying widely attributed to Einstein reads “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”seems pretty appropriate to me! In my view prohibitions and negative reinforcements seldom result in the results intended. In fact history not only validates this but also points to the fact that the unintended consequences can be far worse than the original problem that the law was designed to solve.

Look, we humans just ain’t all that smart. There are far too many variables in this equation to adequately address this issue with some kind of centrally planned regulatory framework. I have yet to hear anyone pose the question pertaining to “Why” this poaching (if we call it that) occurs to begin with. Don’t you all think that would be a good place to start? Obviously the approach we’ve used is not working, are we really that afraid to envision a different solution? If so, we have bigger troubles than ginseng theft on our hands!

Already we live in the most heavily regulated and litigation oriented society that the planet has ever seen. Has crime disappeared yet? I didn’t think so…….

According to an article in the Wall Street Journal a few years back, (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842) Boston civil-liberties lawyer Harvey Silverglate in his book "Three Felonies a Day," refers to the number of crimes he estimates the average American now unwittingly commits. As ignorance is no excuse in breaking the law, and courts are no longer requiring proof of intent, these coupled with the growing militarization of law enforcement in the US, especially in rural areas, makes for a dangerous threat to our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

As this is being written, throughout the nation’s parklands and forests, the documented widespread use of surveillance equipment has eroded Fourth Amendment provisions for the personal privacy of those simply trying to enjoy the outdoors. Before we think about any new law, regulation or policy, we must consider the bleak dystopia so vividly presented by Orwell and ask: “Is this the world in which I want to live”? Plainly it is not the world our founders envisioned for this country!

- Robin
-----Original Message-----
From: Roy Upton
Sent: Jan 14, 2014 6:54 PM
To: Edward Fletcher
Cc: mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org>, 'Ikhlas Khan' , 'Stefan Gafner' , 'Mark Blumenthal'
Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program

Then it sounds relatively easy to enforce. Fine for all illegally sourced root and that will discourage the practice. Unfortunately, it would likely require whistle blowing to the county or state. I would not want to do it; the consequences for individuals and families is pretty big; so not sure how one goes about addressing such things without third-party enforcement for the State itself.

Roy


On Jan 14, 2014, at 3:47 PM, Edward Fletcher wrote:


Hello Roy,

Documenting by the dealers is a little different in each state, but at the least the dealer has to document from whom they buy the ginseng from, the date of purchase, the condition dry or fresh, the weight, the state and county where it was harvested. In North Carolina we have to also see their Drivers License and write their number down along with their address and ask for a phone number. So there is a very well documented paper trail for all purchases.

I agree there are rules in place and these need to be enforced & punished on the law breakers so those who harvest legally are not unduly punished.

Genuinely,
Edward J. Fletcher
Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
Botanical Division, C.O.O.
828.898.7642
Fax.898.7647
Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net<mailto:Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net>
www.StrategicSourcingInc.net<http://www.StrategicSourcingInc.net/>
-----Original Message-----
From: "herbal at got.net<mailto:herbal at got.net>" <herbal at got.net<mailto:herbal at got.net>>
Sent: 1/12/2014 9:36 PM
To: "Edward Fletcher" <efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net<mailto:efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net>>
Cc: "Jeanine Davis" <jeanine_davis at ncsu.edu<mailto:jeanine_davis at ncsu.edu>>; "Ikhlas Khan" <ikhan at olemiss.edu<mailto:ikhan at olemiss.edu>>; "Mark Blumenthal" <Mark at herbalgram.org<mailto:Mark at herbalgram.org>>; "Stefan Gafner" <stefan at herbalgram.org<mailto:stefan at herbalgram.org>>; "mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org>" <mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:mpwg at lists.plantconservation.org>>
Subject: RE: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program


Hi All,

Just thought I would add a few thoughts. As a number of folks have
said, this film captures only a part of the wildcrafting story.
Unfortunately,I do think it reflects a real part of the wildcrafting
community, albeit not the whole wildcrafting community. The fact that
the few gents shown represent a big part of the total tonnage of Amer
ginseng that is collected is something worthy of acknowledging. That
individual wildcrafters, such as the gent poaching on federal lands
and the others on private property are trying to put food on their
table and simply not caring about the environment or propriety of
doing it in a sustainable way. The brokers and dealers also reflect a
desire to "get every bit of it that is out there", put competitors out
of business, and simply get their piece of the pie with no
consciousness or caring. Cape cod fishermen are the same; they
basically say they want to get what they can while they can and that
is about it. This puts those wanting to do it the right way at a
disadvantage, artificially drives costs up or down, and undermines
efforts to promote a consciousness of sustainability. To me, for
threatened species there should be a paper trail required for all
those brokers, how much they got from who,e and document that all
material harvested was done legally. The "disabled" guy clearly should
be penalized just with the evidence this documentary provides; that he
is probably collecting some type of disability while he has the
ability to trek all over the Appalacians and his clear knowledge that
he is doing it illegally. Unfortunately, all the education in the
world will not stop folks like him from getting what they can, when
they can, and however they can and threaten the entire tradition of
wildcrafting. The only solution is to go after those types with
penalties and also focus on the brokers of illegally obtained
material. I expect documenting sources either is not part of the
ginseng requirements for brokers or it is simply not enforced.

I am looking forward to the second segment, more hoping that the gent
will be caught (never thought I would say something like that about a
wildcrafter) and that there would be something good would come by
deterring inappropriate non-sustainable practices.

Roy








On Sun Jan 12 18:12:13 2014, Edward Fletcher
<efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net<mailto:efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net>> wrote:

> This show sensationalizes the fringe element of the ginseng industry, NOT
> the true 'wild crafters' and long heritage of one of our American botanical
> treasures. But then why would 'they' want to make a show that depicts lawful
> and ethical people who are just trying to put shoes on their children's feet
> and food on the table....
>
> Just as Russ, I was shocked that they showed Actaea pachypoda and called it
> 'black cohosh'. This shows just how deep and thorough they researched their
> subject matter before filming! How can we make them retract and/or correct
> this possibly dangerous flagrant inaccuracy.
>
> Genuinely,
> Edward J. Fletcher
> Strategic Sourcing, Inc.
> Botanical Division, C.O.O.
> 828.898.7642
> Fax.898.7647
> Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net<mailto:Efletcher at StrategicSourcingInc.net>
> www.StrategicSourcingInc.net<http://www.StrategicSourcingInc.net/>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "MPWG" <mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org>>
> Sent: 1/10/2014 4:47 PM
> To: "Jeanine Davis" <Jeanine_Davis at ncsu.edu<mailto:Jeanine_Davis at ncsu.edu>>
> Cc: "Ikhlas Khan" <ikhan at olemiss.edu<mailto:ikhan at olemiss.edu>>; "Mark Blumenthal"
> <Mark at herbalgram.org<mailto:Mark at herbalgram.org>>; "Stefan Gafner" <stefan at herbalgram.org<mailto:stefan at herbalgram.org>>;
> "MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org>" <MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org>>
> Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program
>
>
>
> Very sobering. Like the fishermen in Cape Cod. No regard for the future, for
> the land, or for anything other than an instant buck. Very sad.--Roy
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Jeanine Davis wrote:
>
>
>
> This is all so frustrating. And it is discouraging forest landowners from
> planting wild-simulated ginseng because they are afraid with all this
> publicity it is in even greater danger of being poached. Jeanine
>
> Jeanine M. Davis, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor and Extension Specialist
> Dept. of Horticultural Science, NC State University
> Email: Jeanine_Davis at ncsu.edu<mailto:Jeanine_Davis at ncsu.edu> <x-msg://157/Jeanine_Davis@ncsu.edu%20>
> Websites:  http://ncherb.org<http://ncherb.org/> <http://ncherb.org/>
> http://ncspecialtycrops.org<http://ncspecialtycrops.org/> <http://ncspecialtycrops.org/>
> http://ncorganic.org<http://ncorganic.org/> <http://ncorganic.org/>
> Blog:  http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com<http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com/>
> <http://ncalternativecropsandorganics.blogspot.com/>
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/JeanineNCSU
> Facebook: <http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeanine-Davis/1442912228>
> http://www.facebook.com/people/Jeanine-Davis/1442912228
> Address: Mtn. Hort. Crops Research & Extension Center
> 455 Research Drive, Mills River, NC 28759
> Phone:  828-684-3562   FAX:  828-684-8715
>
> From: MPWG [mailto:mpwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
> Susan Leopold
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 10:47 AM
> To: ForestRuss at aol.com<mailto:ForestRuss at aol.com>
> Cc: MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org>
> Subject: Re: [MPWG] ginseng poaching program
>
> Thank you Russ for pointing out the information of wrong identification,
> which sets the stage for the show and possibly more of its kind in the
> works. I personally think it is horrific to have a ginseng show that
> glorifies poaching and all the illegal activity that took place in this show
> to continue with no consequences.  If is was a show about poaching a
> protected animal I wonder how the public would react?
>
> I think this quote from the main ginseng dealers sums up how plants are
> perceived.. see quote and link below.
>
> UpS has released a formal press release warning the History Channel about
> the dangers of promoting poaching of a threatened species...
>
>  "its a protected species, but I don't know why. Its a plant'
> http://www.register-herald.com/local/x1956140531/New-reality-show-focuses-on
> -state-ginseng-business
> http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/12/25/new-reality-show-focuses-on-west-v
> irginia-ginseng-business/
>
> On Jan 10, 2014, at 10:19 AM, ForestRuss at aol.com<mailto:ForestRuss at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> MPWG:
>
> A new program had its debut on History Channel  yesterday 01/09/14 called
> "Appalachian Outlaws.
>
> The program appears to be more about the being a ginseng poacher than almost
> anything else and I am uncertain how it could impact ginseng
> growers...beyond making theft a thrill game.
>
> One concern I have as a long time grower of black Cohosh in a forest setting
> is that one of the poachers already has identified "dolls eye",  Actaea
> pachypoda, as black Cohosh, a very incorrect ID.  They made a point of
> showing the fruit and the foliage.
>
> As a grower of the medicinal black Cohosh plant I think that in 2014 black
> Cohosh root buyers might have to be more vigilant in vetting their purchases
> to make sure they aren't getting poison.
>
> I would appreciate other peoples' thoughts or comments on the program
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Russ Richardson, Certified Forester
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCA's Medicinal Plant Working Group mailing list
> MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org>
> http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/mpwg_lists.plantconserva
> tion.org<http://tion.org>
>
> To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to MPWG-request at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:MPWG-request at lists.plantconservation.org>
> with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
>
> Disclaimer
> Any advice given on this list regarding diagnosis or treatments etc.
> reflects ONLY the opinion of the individual who posts the message. The
> information contained in posts is not intended nor implied to be a
> substitute for professional medical advice relative to your specific medical
> condition or question. All medical and other healthcare information that is
> discussed on this list should be carefully reviewed by the individual reader
> and their qualified healthcare professional. Posts do not reflect any
> official opinions or positions of the Plant Conservation Alliance.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PCA's Medicinal Plant Working Group mailing list
> MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:MPWG at lists.plantconservation.org>
> http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/mpwg_lists.plantconserva
> tion.org<http://tion.org>
>
> To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to MPWG-request at lists.plantconservation.org<mailto:MPWG-request at lists.plantconservation.org>
> with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line.
>
> Disclaimer
> Any advice given on this list regarding diagnosis or treatments etc.
> reflects ONLY the opinion of the individual who posts the message. The
> information contained in posts is not intended nor implied to be a
> substitute for professional medical advice relative to your specific medical
> condition or question. All medical and other healthcare information that is
> discussed on this list should be carefully reviewed by the individual reader
> and their qualified healthcare professional. Posts do not reflect any
> official opinions or positions of the Plant Conservation Alliance.
>
>
>
>


“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.”



Robin Alton Suggs

MoonBranch Botanicals

5294 Yellow Creek Road

Robbinsville, North Carolina 28771

USA



Telephone: 828.479.2788

Email: moonbranch at earthlink.net<mailto:moonbranch at earthlink.net>

Websites:

www.moonbranch.com<http://www.moonbranch.com>  &  www.localharvest.org/store/M16074<http://www.localharvest.org/store/M16074>



Member:

Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project; Farm Partner

Green Products Alliance

North Carolina Consortium on Natural Medicines

North Carolina Goodness Grows/NCDA&CS

United Plant Savers



One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.

- Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.



Civil disobedience becomes a sacred duty when the state becomes lawless or corrupt.

- Mahatma Gandhi



Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.

- Henry David Thoreau



It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.

- Samuel Adams

















“Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.”



Robin Alton Suggs

MoonBranch Botanicals

5294 Yellow Creek Road

Robbinsville, North Carolina 28771

USA



Telephone: 828.479.2788

Email: moonbranch at earthlink.net<mailto:moonbranch at earthlink.net>

Websites:

www.moonbranch.com<http://www.moonbranch.com>  &  www.localharvest.org/store/M16074<http://www.localharvest.org/store/M16074>



Member:

Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project; Farm Partner

Green Products Alliance

North Carolina Consortium on Natural Medicines

North Carolina Goodness Grows/NCDA&CS

United Plant Savers



One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.

- Dr.Martin Luther King Jr.



Civil disobedience becomes a sacred duty when the state becomes lawless or corrupt.

- Mahatma Gandhi



Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.

- Henry David Thoreau



It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds.

- Samuel Adams












-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.plantconservation.org/pipermail/mpwg_lists.plantconservation.org/attachments/20140115/eb96c3ca/attachment.html>