<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<STYLE id=owaParaStyle>P {
MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px
}
</STYLE>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff ocsi="0" fPStyle="1">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT size=2>APWG:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">EXACTLY! Beyfuss is right again! My education was my
biggest problem in developing a viable program for ecosystem restoration here in
CA; it took me fifteen years to un-learn my agronomy and horticulture.
Ecosystems are the opposite of culture. </SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Undisturbed ecosytems tend to sequester (tie-up) the
available nutrients as soon as they are made available by a root-death or a bit
of leaf or animal dropping. Agronomic soil tests will ALWAYS show a "deficiency"
in dynamically stable ecosystems. Even the amounts of P and K, not to mention
trace elements, that show up in such tests are mostly in unavailable form.
Ironically, lacing a site with superphosphate tends to kill the very symbionts
(mycorrhizae) that convert the unavailable P into an available form and
supply it to the photosynthesizers in exchange for carbon (sugars).
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In the sudden flush of NPK following fire or other
disturbance, "weedy" plants flourish, and if nothing is done to replace the
complex ecosytem, especially its mycorrhizal nets, weeds will persist until the
very (relatively) slow process of re-colonization by indigenous species, both
above and below the surface, the process will be even slower, especially if the
biologically-active true soil is removed or otherwise damaged. All "restoration"
practitioners can do is accelerate the process by setting up conditions
favorable to that process. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Much N is lost to the atmosphere following
disturbance (especially fire), but free-living and nodule-forming N-fixing
bacteria are apparently able to compensate for said loss, available to
all-comers, weeds and secondary successional colonists, native or alien.
However, since (this is highly simplified, but I hope adequate) most weeds
evolved in riparian zones and went rampant in cultivated fields where they
hybridized into many of the "monsters" we know, and indigenous components of the
complex ecosystem evolved together over the millennia, the indigenous species
(or aliens adapted to similar environments) will tend, eventually to (more
quickly, one hopes with THE RIGHT KIND of "help") regain dominance over the
weeds and aliens, subject, of course, to the absence of further disturbance
and other environmental changes. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Adding N and other fertilizers just makes weediness
worse--a kind "eutrophication," as it were . . . <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Many “weeds,” particularly indigenous ones, are
simply part of the “succession” process—organisms doing what they can, where
they can, when they can. Spraying herbicides only makes the chem companies
richer and it does far more damage than good, however viscerally righteous it
might make its practitioners and amateur weed-haters feel. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT size=2>Even alien weeds can perform functions
that are beneficial to ecosystem restoration processes in many cases--especially
where their presence is primarily due to continued site disturbances such as by
alien animals. </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT size=2>If any soil testing is relevant at
all, it would have to be performed many times over a period of time to
illustrate the trend of nutrients. Sampling of nutrients in the tissue of living
organisms might be more useful in terms of exposing deficiencies, but the
take-home lesson is that the lower the available nutrients are (sequestered by
plants and other organisms), the lower the weed populations and stature.
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">WT</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3>----- Original Message -----
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT
size=3><B>From:</B> </FONT><A title=rlb14@cornell.edu
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu"><FONT size=3>Robert Layton
Beyfuss</FONT></A><FONT size=3> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3><B>To:</B> </FONT><A
title=craig@astreet.com href="mailto:craig@astreet.com"><FONT
size=3>craig@astreet.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3> ; </FONT><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT
size=3>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT size=3> ; </FONT><A
title=craig@ecoseeds.com href="mailto:craig@ecoseeds.com"><FONT
size=3>craig@ecoseeds.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 20,
2013 7:21 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=3><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] What
caused surprise results in Poppy Project?--Test soil for soil nutrient
thresholds</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; DIRECTION: ltr; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<P><FONT size=3>Hi All</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3>Most home soil test kits are useless based on my
experience comparing their results with legitimate (University) lab
results. Nitrogen or even N0 3 levels are impossible to accurately gauge
due to the fact that this nutrient is constantly changing in soils in form and
availability over even short periods of time. Even home pH testers are
woefully inaccurate. I would never suggest a fertilizer program
without bona fide data to back it up. I am not aware of any laboratories
that provide nutrient guidelines for native plants in the Northeast, but
this may not be the case in the west. Most of our university soil labs (sadly)
can recommend nutrient levels for agronomic crops or ornamental crops only!!
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3>Apparently this what you did on BLM land. Glad that at least
some labs are doing this! </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3>I like the concept of "default weeds". All weeds are default
weeds in the sense that they grow when conditions grant them the
opportunity (opportunistic weeds?) Some thrive in nutrient poor soils
while others thrive in soils that have far too many nutrients as is the
case here in the northeast. Farmers plant lagoons of reeds and cattails to
suck up extra nutrients and most waterways that are lined with exotic weeds
are overloaded with nutrients also. The biomass that plants such
as knotweed (formerly Polygonum cuspidatum) produce each year is astonishing
to see along many waterways here and this is due to high nutrient levels. Wish
that someone would harvest this stuff and burn it for energy instead of
planting willows and adding 75 pounds of N per acre to get them to grow
well. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3>Of course there are other factors such as soil organic matter
levels, soil compaction (surely an issue in overgrazed land?) and possibly
allelopathic effects of exotics. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3>I do like the quick and dirty idea of actually observing what
is going on and then trying to address the specific problems, instead of
simply spraying herbicides on the exotics and hoping that the natives will
return on their own. Unfortunately, that approach has seemed to dominate
invasion biology thinking for far too long but when funding
for "restoration" has come from weed killing entities, it is to be
expected. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman">
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<DIV id=divRpF947176 style="DIRECTION: ltr"><FONT face=Tahoma
color=#000000><B>From:</B> APWG [apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] on
behalf of craig@astreet.com [craig@astreet.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday,
September 18, 2013 4:34 PM<BR><B>To:</B> apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
craig@ecoseeds.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] What caused surprise results
in Poppy Project?--Test soil for soil nutrient thresholds<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Dear Robert and All,</P>
<P>Thanks for your question. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>About testing for the soil nutrient threshold, you can do it at least three
ways:</P>
<P>1.) HOME TEST KIT. Use a simple garden store soil test kit on at least
three locations for a native species--(a) Where you see native seedlings
surviving, (b) Where you see established native plants and no seedlings, and
(c) No native plants nearby existing native plants. It costs about $10
to these three tests.</P>
<P>2.) SOIL TESTING LAB. Do these same three tests but send them to a lab and
have the N-P-K-pH run and get the threshold for each species in PPM for the
nutrients. That is what we did on the BLM land for the 600 acres of
pipeline north of Reno.</P>
<P>3.) WATCH THE PLANTS. Sow native seeds or seedlings either on site or in ex
situ test pots, and add measured amounts of fertilizers to see the responses.
Use a native that easily shows nutrient problems, so you can correct any
problems rapidly so the seedlings do not die on you before you can correct the
problem. I use the California poppy and the broad-leaved California
brome, because they have a rapid response to nutrient problems. A
species not to use, is the Stipas or the needlegrasses, because their
responses are slow and they have very narrow leaves that are hard to read.
Broad leaved grasses or fast growing forbs are best.</P>
<P>Once you find your native seedling soil nutrient thresholds, you can then
take a look at local weed infestations, and see if the root cause of their
spread, instead of being invasive plants, is that they are only Default Weeds,
able to grow where the soil levels are too poor for local native
seedling survival, like cheatgrass, thistles, medusahead, etc.</P>
<P>I also use this technique of checking for soil nutrient problems by
watching the leaves, for my Haiti farming project, with corn to check N-P-K
and pepper leaves to check calcium, that you can see information at
http://www.ecoseeds.com/clear.html and http://www.haitiag.org. </P>
<P>Sincerely, Craig Dremann (650) 325-7333</P>
<P>====================</P>
<P>> So, did you test the soils for nutrient levels? Have you learned
the<BR>> optimal nutrient levels for the natives that you are trying to
reestablish<BR>> and compared them to the soils you are now working
with?<BR>><BR>>
________________________________<BR> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's Alien
Plant Working Group mailing
list<BR>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org<BR>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org<BR><BR>Disclaimer<BR>Any
requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the opinion of
the individual posting the message.</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>