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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would agree that correlation is not necessarily
causation, but in this case the evidence was pretty strong. I do not disagree
that the other factors Adair mentions MIGHT be causal, but it would be a big
stretch to presume so. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>WT</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kadair@TNC.ORG href="mailto:kadair@TNC.ORG">Karen Adair</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=landrest@cox.net
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">Wayne Tyson</A> ; <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 06, 2013 3:21 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [APWG] Heavy use of
herbicide Roundup linked tohealth dangers:study</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">In
lieu of an obvious/egregious mistake, is it possible to “confirm or reject
conjectures” when sites, knowledge/experience/limitations of the people doing
the work, unknown mistakes being made, quality/cleanliness/calibration of
equipment being used, soil properties, weather conditions, age/severity of
invasion, known/unknown allopathic factors, etc. etc. are different from
situation to situation, not to mention everything we just don’t know? If
someone has figured out some generic probability of influence on success for
each of the enumerable variables that go into a control project, please send.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Without
such a thing, and in order to understand the probability of glyphosate being
the culprit in your situation, a number of other variables would have to be
described. Were the seeds bagged? If so, could the bags used in the weedy area
been different? Seeds were the same age and from the same source? Were they
all stored the same? Could they have been applied differently because it was
on a slope? Could light or moisture conditions have been different because it
was on a slope? Was a similar type/height of duff added to the non-sprayed
area to make light/moisture conditions and exposure to birds/rodents similar
to the sprayed area with its invasive duff layer? Was the invasive duff layer
too deep for them to be able to germinate? Did seeds never germinate at all?
Did they germinate and then die? If so, did they appear stressed or were they
simply outcompeted/overcome by the invasives that also germinated?
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Without
knowing if all other variables were the same between the sprayed and
non-sprayed sites, how do you point the finger at
glyphosate?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Wayne Tyson
[mailto:landrest@cox.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 06, 2013 11:19
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Karen Adair;
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] Heavy use of
herbicide Roundup linked tohealth dangers:
study<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">A <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">possibility,</SPAN></EM> sure, but
not a <EM><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">probability.
</SPAN></EM>Certainly the "soils" were disturbed; they were cut slopes,
creating ideal conditions for colonization by weedy plants. Yes, the
"invasives" could have altered soil properties (one of the ways is
soil-building), and in fact, it could have been the dead invasives that
harbored the residues that killed the emerging native seedlings.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Conjecture can be
useful, but useless in the absence of a stated theoretical foundation or
actual evidence. What is needed is good science that can confirm or reject the
conjectures. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">WT</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=kadair@TNC.ORG href="mailto:kadair@TNC.ORG">Karen Adair</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Monday, May 06,
2013 7:01 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [APWG] Heavy
use of herbicide Roundup linked tohealth dangers:
study<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Tank
residue is a definite possibility or what about the soils being different in
the invaded areas to begin with? Were those soils disturbed at some point
(causing the invasion in the first place)? Could the invasives have altered
soil properties?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> APWG [<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill Nagle<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, May 05, 2013 11:52
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [APWG] Heavy use of herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers:
study<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Probably what the contractor had in
the tank before s/he sprayed your plots with
glyphosate?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Bill<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-NZ
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> APWG [<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 4 May 2013 10:11
a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [APWG] Heavy use of herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers:
study<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-NZ><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">All:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I had a case
about fifteen years ago where a contractor sprayed a part of the (ecosystem
restoration) project that was particularly weedy with a glyphosate
compound against my expressed orders to spray nothing. The idea was to
germinate the seeds, then kill the plants before they set seed.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The weeds were
killed, and after the period specified by the manufacturer had passed, the
area was seeded with indigenous species. The indigenous species germinated
everywhere but where the contractor had sprayed, but we got only more weeds
in that area.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The
manufacturer's representative went into denial; I got no help from them
except to repeat the claim that the herbicide "biodegraded" into harmless
components. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Can anyone shed
light on this? </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">WT</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov
href="mailto:Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov">Maze, Dominic</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=genafleming@gmail.com href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">Gena
Fleming</A> ; <A title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
; <A title=rferriel@blm.org
href="mailto:rferriel@blm.org">rferriel@blm.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Thursday, May
02, 2013 5:07 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [APWG]
Heavy use of herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers:
study<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Some
excellent points, Gena,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
I’ll try, with limited time, to address a bit of your thoughtful
comments:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
GF: “</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">I
see this idea implied a lot, that limiting the variable should
somehow limit the effects. I'm not aware of any actual support of
that in reality. Glyphosate or any other single chemical compound
may not be complex, but when they interact with biological systems, the
effects can become quite diversified and complex. This is a function
of the complexity of biological systems, not the complexity of the
chemical compound.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
am unsure of how you received this “implied” from what I wrote (then
again, I’m not the best at expressing my thoughts); but I’ll bite and
attempt to defend a point I wasn’t really making. I think what I (and some
others) have tried to point out that glyphosate HAS been studied;
seemingly to death. These previous studies; direct, toxicological
studies (in marked contrast to this admittedly indirect study); have
examined the effects of glyphosate at many concentrations and dosages
(“the dose makes the poison”). I strongly disagree with your second
sentence in the above paragraph and whole-heartedly agree with the third.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
GF:</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> That being said,
glyphosate is used in formulations, not in isolation. There is a
lack of data for the formulations, because manufacturers are not required
to disclose "inactive ingredients". It is, however, well recognized
that adjuvants can and do increase the toxicity and
persistence of pesticide formulations, and this is the reason that
they are there in the first place. </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
I again agree, but the paper we’re discussing is citing research examining
the effects of not Roundup, or Aquamaster, or product X, but the chemical
glyphosate.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
GF: “</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">It is interesting
to note that the article appeared in a special edition of Entropy called
"Biosemiotic Entropy: Disorder, Disease and Mortality".
Biosemiosis introduces a significant paradigm shift in our perception
of biologic function. This perspective may not embraced by
all, but I consider it a noble attempt to address the complexity of
biological systems. In any event, I believe the article
deserves more thoughtful consideration than that offered by Tamar
Haspel in the Huffington Post.</SPAN>”<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Fair
points for the most part; however, I’m not sure how much consideration the
article <I>does</I> deserve. As organic chemist Derek Lowe has
stated so much better than I: </SPAN>Their thesis is that the compound is
an inhibitor of the metabolizing CYP enzymes, of the biosynthesis of
aromatic amino acids by gut bacteria, and of sulfate transport. But the
evidence given for these assertions, and their connection with disease,
while it might look alarming and convincing to someone who has never done
research or read a scientific paper, is a spiderweb of "might", "could",
"is possibly", "associated with", and so on. The minute you look at the
actual evidence, things disappear.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><A
href="http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/04/30/is_glyphosate_poisoning_everyone.php">http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/04/30/is_glyphosate_poisoning_everyone.php</A><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">He
then, after providing more critiques, goes on to disparage the actual
journal the article appears in and others have taken issue with the
authors, themselves; not really adding to the discussion, in my
opinion.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
shouldn’t have to say it but I personally dislike the rampant use of
herbicides in our society. I employ them, reluctantly, as part of my
job duties and I’ve seen some others resorting to them as a first resort,
instead of last, in contradiction of most accepted IPM practices.
There are plenty of reasons to limit the use of herbicides in society:
weed resistance, non-target effects, the resources required in
manufacture/transport, animal testing,<I> actual</I> toxic effects of some
formulations, etc. But this poorly written and conceived “study”
smacks of fear-mongering with an agenda. The blowback from those
established authors in the fields of organic chemistry and toxicology has
begun, and surely won’t assist those looking for an overall decrease in
the use of herbicides.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Best
wishes,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><STRONG><SPAN
style="COLOR: green">Dominic Maze</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="COLOR: green"> | </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Invasive
Species Coordinator/Biologist </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: green"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">City
of Portland Environmental Services<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">1120
SW 5th Avenue, Room 1000<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Portland,
Oregon 97204<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">p:
(503) 823-4899<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">f:
(503) 823-5344</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: green"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="mailto:dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov">dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: gray"><A
href="http://www.portlandonline.com/bes/index.cfm?c=45696"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">www.portlandonline.com/bes/invasives</SPAN></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Gena Fleming
[<A href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">mailto:genafleming@gmail.com</A>]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, April 30, 2013 5:26 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Maze,
Dominic; <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>;
<A href="mailto:rferriel@blm.org">rferriel@blm.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [APWG] Heavy use of herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers:
study</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">This is a
interesting article and I appreciate learning about it here on APWG.
I was confused by the comments at first, thinking it was posted on an
environmental health listserve I subscribe to. My comments
below.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">Dominic
Maze wrote:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">The fact that this
paper identifies a whole range of medical issues linked to (presumably)
one active ingredient makes me suspicious; it would seem to be much more
realistic that a study on the potential ill-effects of an already
rigorously studied, very well-known and contentious chemical and
product, would turn up perhaps a single significant linkage between
ill-health and glyphosate.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">GF:
<SPAN style="COLOR: black">I see this idea implied a lot, that limiting
the variable should somehow limit the effects. I'm not aware of
any actual support of that in reality. Glyphosate or any other
single chemical compound may not be complex, but when they interact with
biological systems, the effects can become quite diversified and
complex. This is a function of the complexity of biological systems,
not the complexity of the chemical
compound.</SPAN></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">That being
said, glyphosate is used in formulations, not in isolation. There is
a lack of data for the formulations, because manufacturers are not
required to disclose "inactive ingredients". It is, however, well
recognized that adjuvants can and do increase the toxicity and
persistence of pesticide formulations, and this is the reason that
they are there in the first place. This, along with other factors,
contributes to a contextual bias that makes it difficult to assess
the full toxicity of pesticide
formulations.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">DM: A colleague
sent this link to a Huffington Post article (not exactly known for being
journalistic shills for big business) which makes a nice
rebuttal:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"><A
href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html"
target=_blank>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html</A></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">I guess the real
question is how does such a poorly executed study and paper get
published in a well-respected, even if not impactful,
journal?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">GF:
Marc, I'm not sure what it is about Tamar Haspel's opinion piece that you
consider to be a nice rebuttal. She explains that she googles
"exogenous semiotic entropy", retrieves that exact sequence of words only
in this article, and concludes the authors made the whole thing up.
(???) </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">I agree
with you that there is no reason to suspect the writer is a shill for big
business, just a person with an opinion, which she is entitled to.
However, I do not find her analysis of this article to be particularly
insightful.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">Here is a
link to the referenced article in Entropy:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> <A
href="http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416"
target=_blank>http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416</A></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">It is
interesting to note that the article appeared in a special edition of
Entropy called "Biosemiotic Entropy: Disorder, Disease and
Mortality". Biosemiosis introduces a significant paradigm
shift in our perception of biologic function. This perspective
may not embraced by all, but I consider it a noble attempt to address the
complexity of biological systems. In any event, I believe the
article deserves more thoughtful consideration than that offered by
Tamar Haspel in the Huffington Post.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">best
regards,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'">Gena
Fleming<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</DIV>
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class=MsoNormal><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's
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