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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Tank residue is a definite possibility or what about the soils being different in the invaded areas to begin with? Were those soils disturbed at some point
(causing the invasion in the first place)? Could the invasives have altered soil properties?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> APWG [mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill Nagle<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 05, 2013 11:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> apwg@lists.plantconservation.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] Heavy use of herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers: study<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Probably what the contractor had in the tank before s/he sprayed your plots with glyphosate?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Bill<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> APWG [<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wayne Tyson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, 4 May 2013 10:11 a.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] Heavy use of herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers: study<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-NZ"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">All:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I had a case about fifteen years ago where a contractor sprayed a part of the (ecosystem restoration) project that was particularly weedy with a glyphosate compound against
my expressed orders to spray nothing. The idea was to germinate the seeds, then kill the plants before they set seed.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The weeds were killed, and after the period specified by the manufacturer had passed, the area was seeded with indigenous species. The indigenous species germinated everywhere
but where the contractor had sprayed, but we got only more weeds in that area.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The manufacturer's representative went into denial; I got no help from them except to repeat the claim that the herbicide "biodegraded" into harmless components.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Can anyone shed light on this?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">WT</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov" title="Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov">
Maze, Dominic</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com" title="genafleming@gmail.com">Gena Fleming</a> ;
<a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" title="apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a> ; <a href="mailto:rferriel@blm.org" title="rferriel@blm.org">
rferriel@blm.org</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Thursday, May 02, 2013 5:07 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Re: [APWG] Heavy use of herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers: study<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Some excellent points, Gena,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> I’ll try, with limited time, to address a bit of your thoughtful comments:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> GF: “</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:black">I see this idea implied a lot, that limiting the variable should somehow limit the effects.
I'm not aware of any actual support of that in reality. Glyphosate or any other single chemical compound may not be complex, but when they interact with biological systems, the effects can become quite diversified and complex. This is a function of the complexity
of biological systems, not the complexity of the chemical compound.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:black"> </span>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">I am unsure of how you received this “implied” from what I wrote (then again, I’m not the best at expressing my thoughts); but I’ll bite and attempt to defend a point I wasn’t really
making. I think what I (and some others) have tried to point out that glyphosate HAS been studied; seemingly to death. These previous studies; direct, toxicological studies (in marked contrast to this admittedly indirect study); have examined the effects
of glyphosate at many concentrations and dosages (“the dose makes the poison”). I strongly disagree with your second sentence in the above paragraph and whole-heartedly agree with the third. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> GF:</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> That being said, glyphosate is used in formulations, not in isolation. There is a lack of data for the
formulations, because manufacturers are not required to disclose "inactive ingredients". It is, however, well recognized that adjuvants can and do increase the toxicity and persistence of pesticide formulations, and this is the reason that they are there
in the first place. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> I again agree, but the paper we’re discussing is citing research examining the effects of not Roundup, or Aquamaster, or product X, but the chemical glyphosate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"> GF: “</span><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">It is interesting to note that the article appeared in a special edition of Entropy called "Biosemiotic
Entropy: Disorder, Disease and Mortality". Biosemiosis introduces a significant paradigm shift in our perception of biologic function. This perspective may not embraced by all, but I consider it a noble attempt to address the complexity of biological
systems. In any event, I believe the article deserves more thoughtful consideration than that offered by Tamar Haspel in the Huffington Post.</span>”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">
Fair points for the most part; however, I’m not sure how much consideration the article
<i>does</i> deserve. As organic chemist Derek Lowe has stated so much better than I:
</span>Their thesis is that the compound is an inhibitor of the metabolizing CYP enzymes, of the biosynthesis of aromatic amino acids by gut bacteria, and of sulfate transport. But the evidence given for these assertions, and their connection with disease,
while it might look alarming and convincing to someone who has never done research or read a scientific paper, is a spiderweb of "might", "could", "is possibly", "associated with", and so on. The minute you look at the actual evidence, things disappear.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/04/30/is_glyphosate_poisoning_everyone.php">http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/04/30/is_glyphosate_poisoning_everyone.php</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">
He then, after providing more critiques, goes on to disparage the actual journal the article appears in and others have taken issue with the authors, themselves; not really adding to the discussion, in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">I shouldn’t have to say it but I personally dislike the rampant use of herbicides in our society. I employ them, reluctantly, as part of my job duties and I’ve
seen some others resorting to them as a first resort, instead of last, in contradiction of most accepted IPM practices. There are plenty of reasons to limit the use of herbicides in society: weed resistance, non-target effects, the resources required in manufacture/transport,
animal testing,<i> actual</i> toxic effects of some formulations, etc. But this poorly written and conceived “study” smacks of fear-mongering with an agenda. The blowback from those established authors in the fields of organic chemistry and toxicology has
begun, and surely won’t assist those looking for an overall decrease in the use of herbicides.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy">Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><strong><span style="color:green">Dominic Maze</span></strong><span style="color:green"> |
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">Invasive Species Coordinator/Biologist
</span><span style="color:green"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">City of Portland Environmental Services<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">1120 SW 5th Avenue, Room 1000<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">Portland, Oregon 97204<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">p: (503) 823-4899<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray">f: (503) 823-5344</span><span style="color:green"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:gray"><a href="mailto:dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov">dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov</a></span><span style="color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
</span><span style="color:gray"><a href="http://www.portlandonline.com/bes/index.cfm?c=45696"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">www.portlandonline.com/bes/invasives</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Gena Fleming [<a href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">mailto:genafleming@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 30, 2013 5:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Maze, Dominic; <a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>;
<a href="mailto:rferriel@blm.org">rferriel@blm.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] Heavy use of herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers: study</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">This is a interesting article and I appreciate learning about it here on APWG. I was confused by the comments at first, thinking it was posted on an environmental health listserve I subscribe
to. My comments below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Dominic Maze wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:navy">The fact that this paper identifies a whole range of medical issues linked to (presumably) one active ingredient makes me
suspicious; it would seem to be much more realistic that a study on the potential ill-effects of an already rigorously studied, very well-known and contentious chemical and product, would turn up perhaps a single significant linkage between ill-health and
glyphosate.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:navy"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">GF: <span style="color:black">
I see this idea implied a lot, that limiting the variable should somehow limit the effects. I'm not aware of any actual support of that in reality. Glyphosate or any other single chemical compound may not be complex, but when they interact with biological
systems, the effects can become quite diversified and complex. This is a function of the complexity of biological systems, not the complexity of the chemical compound.</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">That being said, glyphosate is used in formulations, not in isolation. There is a lack of data for the formulations, because manufacturers are not required to disclose "inactive ingredients".
It is, however, well recognized that adjuvants can and do increase the toxicity and persistence of pesticide formulations, and this is the reason that they are there in the first place. This, along with other factors, contributes to a contextual bias that
makes it difficult to assess the full toxicity of pesticide formulations.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:navy">DM: A colleague sent this link to a Huffington Post article (not exactly known for being journalistic shills for big business) which makes a nice rebuttal:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:navy">I guess the real question is how does such a poorly executed study and paper get published in a well-respected, even if not
impactful, journal?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">GF: Marc, I'm not sure what it is about Tamar Haspel's opinion piece that you consider to be a nice rebuttal. She explains that she googles "exogenous semiotic entropy", retrieves that exact
sequence of words only in this article, and concludes the authors made the whole thing up. (???)
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">I agree with you that there is no reason to suspect the writer is a shill for big business, just a person with an opinion, which she is entitled to. However, I do not find her analysis of this
article to be particularly insightful.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Here is a link to the referenced article in Entropy:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> <a href="http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416" target="_blank">http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">It is interesting to note that the article appeared in a special edition of Entropy called "Biosemiotic Entropy: Disorder, Disease and Mortality". Biosemiosis introduces a significant paradigm
shift in our perception of biologic function. This perspective may not embraced by all, but I consider it a noble attempt to address the complexity of biological systems. In any event, I believe the article deserves more thoughtful consideration than that
offered by Tamar Haspel in the Huffington Post.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">best regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Gena Fleming<br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:navy"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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