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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Some excellent points, Gena,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> I’ll try, with limited
time, to address a bit of your thoughtful comments:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> GF: “</span></font><font
color=black face=Georgia><span style='font-family:Georgia;color:black'>I see
this idea implied a lot, that limiting the variable should somehow limit
the effects. I'm not aware of any actual support of that in
reality. Glyphosate or any other single chemical compound may not be
complex, but when they interact with biological systems, the effects can become
quite diversified and complex. This is a function of the complexity of
biological systems, not the complexity of the chemical compound.”<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Georgia><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Georgia><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:black'> </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I am unsure of how you received this “implied” from
what I wrote (then again, I’m not the best at expressing my thoughts); but
I’ll bite and attempt to defend a point I wasn’t really making. I
think what I (and some others) have tried to point out that glyphosate HAS been
studied; seemingly to death. These previous studies; direct,
toxicological studies (in marked contrast to this admittedly indirect study);
have examined the effects of glyphosate at many concentrations and dosages (“the
dose makes the poison”). I strongly disagree with your second sentence
in the above paragraph and whole-heartedly agree with the third. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> GF:</span></font><font
face=Georgia><span style='font-family:Georgia'> That being said, glyphosate is
used in formulations, not in isolation. There is a lack of data for the
formulations, because manufacturers are not required to disclose "inactive
ingredients". It is, however, well recognized that adjuvants can and
do increase the toxicity and persistence of pesticide formulations,
and this is the reason that they are there in the first place. </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> I again agree, but the paper
we’re discussing is citing research examining the effects of not Roundup,
or Aquamaster, or product X, but the chemical glyphosate.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> GF: “</span></font><font
face=Georgia><span style='font-family:Georgia'>It is interesting to note that
the article appeared in a special edition of Entropy called "Biosemiotic
Entropy: Disorder, Disease and Mortality".
Biosemiosis introduces a significant paradigm shift in our perception of biologic
function. This perspective may not embraced by all, but I consider
it a noble attempt to address the complexity of biological systems. In
any event, I believe the article deserves more
thoughtful consideration than that offered by Tamar Haspel in the
Huffington Post.</span></font>”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> Fair points
for the most part; however, I’m not sure how much consideration the
article <i><span style='font-style:italic'>does</span></i> deserve. As
organic chemist Derek Lowe has stated so much better than I: </span></font>Their
thesis is that the compound is an inhibitor of the metabolizing CYP enzymes, of
the biosynthesis of aromatic amino acids by gut bacteria, and of sulfate
transport. But the evidence given for these assertions, and their connection
with disease, while it might look alarming and convincing to someone who has
never done research or read a scientific paper, is a spiderweb of
"might", "could", "is possibly", "associated
with", and so on. The minute you look at the actual evidence, things
disappear.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><a
href="http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/04/30/is_glyphosate_poisoning_everyone.php">http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/04/30/is_glyphosate_poisoning_everyone.php</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> </span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>He then, after providing
more critiques, goes on to disparage the actual journal the article appears in
and others have taken issue with the authors, themselves; not really adding to
the discussion, in my opinion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I shouldn’t have to say it but I personally
dislike the rampant use of herbicides in our society. I employ them,
reluctantly, as part of my job duties and I’ve seen some others resorting
to them as a first resort, instead of last, in contradiction of most accepted
IPM practices. There are plenty of reasons to limit the use of herbicides
in society: weed resistance, non-target effects, the resources required in
manufacture/transport, animal testing,<i><span style='font-style:italic'> actual</span></i>
toxic effects of some formulations, etc. But this poorly </span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>written and conceived “study” smacks of fear-mongering with
an agenda. The blowback from those established authors in the fields of
organic chemistry and toxicology has begun, and surely won’t assist those
looking for an overall decrease in the use of herbicides.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><strong><b><font size=3
color=green face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:green'>Dominic
Maze</span></font></b></strong><font color=green><span style='color:green'> | </span></font><font
size=2 color=gray face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:gray'>Invasive Species Coordinator/Biologist </span></font><font
color=green><span style='color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=gray
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:gray'>City
of <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Portland</st1:place></st1:City>
Environmental Services<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address
w:st="on"><font size=2 color=gray face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:gray'>1120 SW 5th Avenue</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font
size=2 color=gray face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:gray'>, Room 1000<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on"><font size=2 color=gray face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;color:gray'>Portland</span></font></st1:City><font
size=2 color=gray face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:gray'>, <st1:State w:st="on">Oregon</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">97204</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place><font
size=2 color=gray face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
color:gray'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=gray
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:gray'>p:
(503) 823-4899<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=gray
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:gray'>f:
(503) 823-5344</span></font><font color=green><span style='color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=gray
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:gray'><a
href="mailto:dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov">dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov</a></span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>
</span></font><font color=gray><span style='color:gray'><a
href="http://www.portlandonline.com/bes/index.cfm?c=45696"><font size=2
face=Calibri><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Calibri'>www.portlandonline.com/bes/invasives</span></font></a></span><o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Gena Fleming
[mailto:genafleming@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, April 30, 2013 5:26
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Maze, Dominic; <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</st1:PersonName>; rferriel@blm.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [APWG] Heavy use of
herbicide Roundup linked to health dangers: study</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>This is a interesting article and I appreciate learning
about it here on APWG. I was confused by the comments at first, thinking
it was posted on an environmental health listserve I subscribe to.
My comments below.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Dominic Maze wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<div vlink=blue link=blue>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;
color:navy'>The fact that this paper identifies a whole range of medical issues
linked to (presumably) one active ingredient makes me suspicious; it would seem
to be much more realistic that a study on the potential ill-effects of an
already rigorously studied, very well-known and contentious chemical and
product, would turn up perhaps a single significant linkage between ill-health
and glyphosate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;
color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>GF: <font color=black><span style='color:black'>I
see this idea implied a lot, that limiting the variable should somehow
limit the effects. I'm not aware of any actual support of that in
reality. Glyphosate or any other single chemical compound may not be
complex, but when they interact with biological systems, the effects can become
quite diversified and complex. This is a function of the complexity of
biological systems, not the complexity of the chemical compound.</span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>That being said, glyphosate is used in formulations, not
in isolation. There is a lack of data for the formulations, because
manufacturers are not required to disclose "inactive
ingredients". It is, however, well recognized that adjuvants can and
do increase the toxicity and persistence of pesticide formulations,
and this is the reason that they are there in the first place. This,
along with other factors, contributes to a contextual bias that makes it
difficult to assess the full toxicity of pesticide formulations.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face=Georgia><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;color:navy'>DM: A colleague sent this link to
a Huffington Post article (not exactly known for being journalistic shills for
big business) which makes a nice rebuttal:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<div vlink=blue link=blue>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'><a
href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html"
target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 color=navy face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia;
color:navy'>I guess the real question is how does such a poorly executed study
and paper get published in a well-respected, even if not impactful, journal?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>GF: Marc, I'm not sure what it is about Tamar
Haspel's opinion piece that you consider to be a nice rebuttal. She
explains that she googles "exogenous semiotic entropy", retrieves
that exact sequence of words only in this article, and concludes the authors
made the whole thing up. (???) </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I agree with you that there is no reason to suspect the
writer is a shill for big business, just a person with an opinion, which she is
entitled to. However, I do not find her analysis of this article to be
particularly insightful.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Here is a link to the referenced article in Entropy:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> <a href="http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416"
target="_blank">http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/15/4/1416</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>It is interesting to note that the article appeared in a
special edition of Entropy called "Biosemiotic Entropy: Disorder,
Disease and Mortality". Biosemiosis introduces a
significant paradigm shift in our perception of biologic function.
This perspective may not embraced by all, but I consider it a noble attempt to
address the complexity of biological systems. In any event,
I believe the article deserves more thoughtful consideration than
that offered by Tamar Haspel in the Huffington Post.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>best regards,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Georgia><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Gena Fleming<br>
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font-family:Georgia;color:navy'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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