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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">For what it may be worth, I’ve
inserted a few comments within the texts of the thread below [[in
double-brackets WT]]. I reformatted. I am leaving for an extended trip to
the boondocks, mainly in CA, but possibly OR, and other western states. Will be
back around Oct. 10, but no email after today or tomorrow, so I will have to
wait to respond to any responses. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">WT<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=sapogordoeco@comcast.net
href="mailto:sapogordoeco@comcast.net">Joe Franke</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=genafleming@gmail.com
href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">Gena Fleming</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A
title=native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org">native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
; <A title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Wednesday, September 05, 2012 8:00
PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> [APWG] Human sacrifice and
ecosystem function<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Gena, <BR><BR>Very well stated.
<BR><BR>I tried to bring about a little of that contextual shift that you
mention by writing “The Invasive Species Cookbook”, which will be in its second
edition within the year. At the risk of this sounding like and advert for the
book, I’d welcome any new recipes that people would like to contribute. The book
was met with a certain amount of derision when reviewed in Ecology and
Ecological Restoration, mostly because there was a widespread misunderstanding
of the books’s purpose by the reviewers in that they thought that I was
advocating human consumption as a means of species control. In reality the
central purpose of the book is to help people to think a bit differently about
invasives, both plant and animal. Parenthetically, it was suggested several
times by readers of the first edition of the book that I include recipes for
humans, our species being the most “invasive” and destructive of the world’s
biota, but I’ve elected not to for several reasons, commercial and ethical. I’m
not quite ready for that broad a contextual change!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[Unfortunately, there are some out
there who have no sense of humor. It’s another “law” that people who resort to
derision are insecure. WT]]<BR><BR>Even if such a contextual shift isn’t
immediately possible, I think that the discussion about how we might get there
is one worthy of discussion now. How we view the world’s biota, to what
degree we value fully functioning ecosystems and how much we’re willing to
sacrifice in order to get them to get to the point where we have sufficient
tools at our disposal to really bring them back, rather than just treating
symptoms of the disease (e.g. Tamarisk and Phragmites) are things that we should
be talking about, even while we chop and poison with fingers crossed in hope
that we’re doing some good...which is sometimes not the case. I’ve seen plenty
around here that would indicate that we’re actually doing more damage than good.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[HOORAY! The truth is finally
leaking out. But watch out, my friend, I would have been burned at the stake had
some folks had their way . . . <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>As
it was I was widely slandered. Now I’m retired, so FMDIDGAD! <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>WT]]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Some invasive plants seem to thrive
on abuse, take Russian olive for example. [[I repeat: “Organisms do what they
can, when they can, where they can!” WT]]<BR><BR>How to induce the necessary
cultural change in thinking that will allow for more water in the river...that’s
the rub.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Right</st1:City> <st1:State w:st="on">ON</st1:State></st1:place>! At
least we need some periodic flooding of the riparian alluvium, but that’s gonna
be a hard sell to the “thirsty” cities downstream that are gonna keep on
landscaping and irrigating ‘till it’s all gone! I have a scheme to do this in
net effect (not as good as releasing flood-flows from the dams, mind you, but at
least to provide a mixed riparian woodland that reduces the tamarisk fraction.
WT]]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Environmental education as it has existed
since the ‘70s is largely a failure because it has done little to change
“nature’s” place in the values hierarchy. But without this essential set of
changes we as a species are doomed, and the sneaking suspicion that what we’re
doing in restoration work is largely a proverbial finger in the dike.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[. . . and sometimes an auger.
WT]]<BR><BR>JF<BR><BR><BR>On 9/5/12 8:20 PM, "Gena Fleming"
<genafleming@gmail.com> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Joe, I really think the point you
are bringing up is essential. An academic discussion may be where we
start; at least the topic is being broached. Focussing on invasive plants
instead of the "ecological perturbations" is exactly what's allowing these
ecological perturbations to continue.<BR> <BR>The problems we are facing
are going to require an essential shift of context. This need
for contextual shifting (or perhaps I should say for a conceptual shift towards
contextual thinking) is not unique to invasive plant discussions; it applies to
just about every problem we are facing right now ---- including education,
medicine, economics, etc. Imagine every discipline mirroring the same
conceptual flaw in a hologram. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Right</st1:City> <st1:State w:st="on">ON</st1:State></st1:place>!
WT]]<BR> <BR>I think that's why it's so hard to change our thinking.
Letting go of the invasive plant focus doesn't make sense within the existing
socioeconomic context. But if we lived in a society where we were
eating invasive plants, making medicine out of invasive plants, making paper out
of invasive plants, and using invasive plants for bioremediation, well pretty
soon the situation might resolve itself.<BR>In fact, maybe that's why they are
invasive ---- they're an underutilized resource. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[I’m a big invasive plant-eater
(mustard, goosefoot [oops, native “weed”], nettle, etc.], but I doubt that
eating them will have much effect on populations. For that, one has to allow (or
help) the indigenous ecosystem to re-invade. WT]]<BR> <BR>We keep trying to
tweek things with efforts to mitigate the symptoms we are creating, only to
allow us to continue pursuing business as usual. I realize we can't change
the game overnight, but at least we can start having these conversations.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[Well, as Einstein said (I
paraphrase, and perhaps distort), “The definition of stupidity is continuing to
repeat an action that produces undesirable consequences.”
WT]]<BR> <BR>Anyway, I appreciate your contribution. Also, If
you are the author of the "Invasive Species Cookbook," will you please tell me
where I can get a copy? <BR> <BR>Gena
Fleming<BR> <BR> <BR><BR> <BR>On 5 September 2012 20:40, Joe
Franke <sapogordoeco@comcast.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Well, so far it’s only an academic
discussion. When you point out these problems to funders of restoration
projects, they don’t want to hear about it. It’s a little like American politics
in that it’s easier to “other” a politician than to look at the social
conditions that brought them to power and do something about the “root”
problems. <BR><BR>It’s been horrifying to see how much money has been wasted
here on the unsuccessful attempted “control” of tamarisk, Russian olive and
Siberian elm in cottonwood Bosque along the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Rio Grande</st1:City></st1:place>. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[I have been preaching this for
years, apparently to zero effect. Hope you’re a better salesman that I.
WT]]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I would recommend that people look
at some of Mathew Chew’s work, including: <I>Chew</I>, M.K. 2009. The Monstering
of <I>Tamarisk</I>: How scientists made a plant into a problem. Journal of the
History of Biology 42:231-266 <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[Can somebody send me/us a copy by
email? It’s called a reprint request. WT]]<BR> <BR>He has some more
technical articles out as well that I have yet to read, but will do so shortly.
I think that there is a lot to discuss here, and I’d be very interested to
hear what other people have to say about the general topic of focusing on
specific invasive species and not the ecological perturbations that allow them
to dominate entire ecosystems. [[<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Right</st1:City> <st1:State w:st="on">ON</st1:State></st1:place>!
WT]]<BR><BR>Joe Franke <BR><BR><BR><BR>On 9/5/12 7:14 PM, "Gena Fleming"
<genafleming@gmail.com> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think you are having the most
relevant discussion out West. It's time to start focussing on the real
problem. <BR><BR>On 5 September 2012 15:18, Joe Franke
<sapogordoeco@comcast.net> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There is a perhaps different but
related discussion that’s going on out here in the West concerning Tamarisk. To
many of us attempting to do restoration work we’ve realized that the spread and
extreme “weediness” of plant is more of a symptom of poor water management than
an evil unto itself, and becomes a convenient shill that distracts (mostly
federal) land managers from the real problem: not enough water on the land, and
disrupted flood cycles. We can blame tamarisk all we want, but the real problem
lies in our species’ wasteful use and mismanagement of the water resource.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[Glad to hear that someone still
active in restoration is catching on to this. We should do a demonstration
project somewhere. The Colorado River south of <st1:place w:st="on">Green
River</st1:place>? I have developed some relatively cheap mechanics . . . but
then you probably have too. WT]]<BR><BR><BR>On 9/4/12 7:35 PM, "Robert Layton
Beyfuss" <rlb14@cornell.edu> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks to all who have responded and
elaborated on my original query. I think the general consensus is that native
plants cannot be “officially” invasive but they surely can be problematic! I
have a colleague at Cornell who refers to native weeds that behave like
invasives as “interfering” vegetation. No one has ever satisfactorily defined
“exotic” in my opinion and I consider <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Clinton</st1:place></st1:City>’s executive order as a political gaffe
that has mostly served to make ecologists fight over semantics as the exchanges
here seem to verify. I am not so sure how much science has advanced due to
executive orders. It has also generated a backlash that causes people to
hate plants from Europe or <st1:place w:st="on">Asia</st1:place> in general and
to create black lists and white lists of plants which I find very
disturbing. Vastly different ecosystems exist even within a given state or
region. I consider it impossible to say that a plant which is native to
<st1:country-region w:st="on">Canada</st1:country-region> is exotic anywhere in
n <st1:place w:st="on">North America</st1:place> but it surely does not exist in
many American ecosystems.. So where does one draw the border line? Black locust,
as one poster mentioned is a classic example of a plant that grew satisfactorily
in one particular place, but now seems to be a problem in other places not very
far away. Some states consider it as exotic. Plants don’t recognize borders and
neither should we in trying to tell “good” plants from “bad” plants based on
their lack of green cards. Ecosystems are highly dynamic as succession creates
profound changes in species composition. Almost all plants have their merits and
demerits in ecosystems and many exotic plants have served us very well indeed.
Poison ivy may provide food for 60 or 70 bird species but so do Autumn olive and
multiflora rose without being toxic to touch. Introduced species are now
hybridizing with related native ones as is the case with Phragmites and probably
others. How will we classify their offspring? If they originate in the
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>, are they not native? If the
hybrids become even more invasive does that fact become moot because they
originated here? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[Good points—but are they
listening? WT]]<BR> <BR> <BR><BR><B>From:</B> Claudia Thompson-Deahl
[<A href="mailto:CLAUDIA@reston.org]">mailto:CLAUDIA@reston.org]</A>
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 30, 2012 1:34 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Marc Imlay;
Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov; Robert Layton Beyfuss<BR><B>Cc:</B>
native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org; apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
'Katy Cummings'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites
Data<BR><BR>I would be surprised if Poison Ivy is on the National Park Service
Exotic Plant Management Teams list as I have heard about 70 species of birds eat
the berries and it is a native. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[“Controlling poison ivy/oak is a
fool’s errand that continues to be repeated. Herbicide “drift” can kill other
existing and emerging plants, but the practice continues.
WT]]<BR> <BR>Claudia Thompson-Deahl <BR> <BR><BR><I>Environmental
Resource Manager<BR>ISA Certified Arborist # MA-5203A<BR>12250 Sunset Hills
Road<BR>Reston, VA 20190<BR>703.435.6547 <tel:703.435.6547>
<tel:703.435.6547 <tel:703.435.6547> >
<BR>claudia@reston.org</I> <A
href="mailto:claudia@reston.org"><mailto:claudia@reston.org></A>
<BR><B>Reston Association Employees Make the Difference: </B><I>Caring for,
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<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org [<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Marc Imlay<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 30, 2012 8:02
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov; 'Robert Layton
Beyfuss'<BR><B>Cc:</B> native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org;
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org; 'Katy Cummings'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG]
[PCA] Native Phragmites Data<BR><BR><B>I show my volunteers how Poison ivy is
dominant in eary succession habitats after an unnatural disturbance but becomes
a minor species in fully recovered woodlands. The same for
sweetgum.<BR></B><BR><B>Marc Imlay, PhD,<BR>Conservation biologist, Park Ranger
Office<BR></B><BR><B>(301) 442-5657 <tel:%28301%29%20442-5657>
<tel:%28301%29%20442-5657> cell<BR></B><BR><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green">ialm@erols.com<BR></SPAN></B><BR><B>Natural and Historical
Resources Division<BR></B><BR><B>The Maryland-National Capital
Park and Planning Commission<BR></B><BR><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green">www.pgparks.com <A
href="http://www.pgparks.com/"><http://www.pgparks.com/></A> <A
href="http://www.pgparks.com/"><http://www.pgparks.com/></A> </SPAN><A
href="http://www.pgparks.com/"><http://www.pgparks.com/></A>
<BR></B><BR> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR><B>From:</B>
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org [<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August
27, 2012 10:25 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Robert Layton Beyfuss<BR><B>Cc:</B>
native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org; apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
Katy Cummings<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites
Data<BR><BR>Cheers, Bob! <BR><BR>My two cents: <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<UL type=disc>
<LI class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A native can most definitely be an
invasive. Teal and Mark's comments elucidate that issue well.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></LI>
<LI class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I'm not sure what list you might
be referring to, but from what I understand of the Federal Noxious Weed list,
I believe that plants that are either naturalized or have completely overrun
the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> will not end up on that list. I
believe that list tends to include species that are in the earlier stages of
invasion where prevention of further influxes can still make a difference for
slowing the spread. I also doubt it would be on any state list - those often
tend to be geared to non-natives and ornamental plants - of which poison ivy
is neither. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></LI></UL>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[For example, the last time I
looked, California had several native species listed as “noxious,” including a
meadow iris, and other species that are not palatable or are considered
poisonous to cattle. Anybody smell and oxymoron? WT]]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR>It seems like poison ivy falls
into a strange no-man's land - as a native, it doesn't seem to fit on the PCA
ALien Plant WOrking Group listserve - yet the expertise on that list may be more
appropriate (versus this general native plant listserve) because they are the
folks with specific insight on invasive species biology. <BR><BR>I wonder if any
of the National Park Service Exotic Plant Management Teams have identified it as
among their top ten target taxa in any of their regions? <BR><BR>-Patricia
<BR><BR>Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.<BR>Botanist, Division of Scientific
Authority-US Fish & Wildlife Service-International Affairs<BR>Chair,
Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance<BR>4401 N. Fairfax
Dr., Suite 110<BR>Arlington, VA 22203<BR>703-358-1708 x1753
<tel:703-358-1708%20x1753> <tel:703-358-1708%20x1753> <BR>FAX:
703-358-2276 <tel:703-358-2276> <tel:703-358-2276
<tel:703-358-2276> > <BR><BR>Promoting sustainable use and conservation
of our native medicinal plants. <BR><www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal <A
href="http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal"><http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal></A>
<A
href="http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal"><http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal></A>
<A
href="http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal"><http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal></A>
> <BR><BR><BR>Follow International Affairs<BR>> on Twitter <A
href="http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl">http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl</A><BR>>
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<BR><B>Robert Layton Beyfuss <rlb14@cornell.edu></B> <BR>Sent by:
native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org 08/27/2012 09:45 AM <BR>To
Katy Cummings <katy.e.cummings@gmail.com>,
"native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org"
<native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org> <BR>cc <BR>Subject Re:
[PCA] Native Phragmites Data <BR> <BR> <BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi All
<BR>I am a bit confused and hope you can enlighten me. I thought that the basic
definition of an invasive plant was that it had to be exotic. There are
many native plants that create almost solid monocultures such as common
goldenrod yet can it be “undesirable” at any density? . Poison ivy can overrun
entire areas but I have never seen it listed as invasive. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[Some Oregonians believe that
junipers have become “invasive” in the last hundred or so years, and the BLM
even has a demonstration project on Steens mountain illustrating various
“control” methods. They have been cutting down far older junipers in the
process. Even they seem to admit that the “invasion” was a response to human
activity. Well, yes, overgrazed, cow-burnt areas commonly are “invaded” by
“undesirable” species, such as mesquite in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Texas</st1:place></st1:State> and beyond. Pinyons and junipers have
been expensively (taxpayers pay for the benefit of “ranchers”) chained and
poisoned for decades “to improve grass forage,” and has backfired. <SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The list goes on. I don’t consider this
process as “invasive;” I consider it to be the response of organisms to change.
WT]]<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR>Bob
<BR> <BR><B>From:</B>
native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org [<A
href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]">mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org]</A>
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Katy Cummings<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 20, 2012 9:28
PM<BR><B>To:</B> native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[PCA] Native Phragmites Data <BR> <BR>Fellow Conservationists-
<BR> <BR>I work for The Nature Conservancy (TNC) in <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Door County</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">WI</st1:State></st1:place>. My main project this summer has been
mapping exotic and native stands of Phragmites (<I>Phragmites australis</I> and
<I>Phragmites australis americanus</I>) throughout TNC properties in <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Door</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>. I have some questions and
experiences to share with you as our organization tries to learn more about the
native/exotic Phragmites issue. <BR> <BR>We all know what havoc
the exotic Phragmites subspecies can wreak on an ecosystem, but do we know
anything about the native subspecies? <B>Is there any research out there
showing that the native Phragmites can behave as aggressively as the exotic?
</B>In <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Door</st1:PlaceName>
<st1:PlaceType w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, the native usually
grows in scattered to moderate densities along with other wetland plants, with a
few patches showing denser concentrations. There are a few areas where the
native has reached undesirable “dense” concentrations, but as of yet we don’t
know why. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">[[I know relatively little about
Phragmites, but I encountered a mystery that was neatly solved by G. L. Stebbins
in the 1950’s. It took me about a month of old-fashioned literature research to
find a couple of key papers by Stebbins and someone else whose name I have
forgotten. This had to do with hybrids that developed, apparently in response to
human disturbance, of the genus Elymus/Leymus. Fred Sproul wrote a paper about
the gross morphology of the hybrids and the “pure” species. Stebbins found that
the hybrids were essentially sterile, but they had hybrid vigor, and were thus
able to dominate just about everything. Sproul and I found very large clones of
the hybrids in which nothing else grew. This phenomenon was found by Stebbins to
match the geographic areas where E./L. triticoides was overlapped by E./L.
condensatus and/or E./L. glaucus.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>This gets complexer and complexer, so I’ll stop here.
WT]]<BR> <BR><B>What other plants are associated with the native
Phragmites?</B> TNC will be setting up monitoring plots soon on some of
our native patches, and when we get that data I’ll send it to any interested
people from this list. The only list I’ve been able to find is from a
chapter by Laura Meyerson et al. in “Invasions in North American Salt Marshes”
entitled “Phragmites australis in Eastern North America: A Historical and
Ecological Perspective”. Does anyone know of other lists from different
regions of the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region>? <BR> <BR><B>Are
there any patterns to where native Phragmites is found? </B>During my
mapping of the plant in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Door</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>, I’ve generally found native
Phragmites set back from the edge of waterways and growing in more marshy areas.
<BR> <BR><B>What have you all seen as far as size of patches, number
of patches, location, rate of spread, etc. of the native Phragmites in your
area? </B>Most of the wetlands in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName
w:st="on">Door</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">County</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> are fed by alkaline ground water
discharge as a result of movement through the underlying dolomitic bedrock.
I assume that because of these alkaline conditions we have a higher
population of native Phragmites than perhaps other regions of the <st1:place
w:st="on">Midwest</st1:place>. Is this true? <BR> <BR>To
help answer these questions, The Nature Conservancy’s <st1:place w:st="on">Door
Peninsula</st1:place> office has temporarily halted eradication measures of
native lineages of <I>Phragmites</I>. We are in the process of developing
long-term monitoring plots in native <I>Phragmites </I>stands throughout Nature
Conservancy holdings in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Door
County</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">WI</st1:State></st1:place>. The
goals of this monitoring project will be to assess the following questions:
<BR><I>1. </I>Under what conditions do native
stands become aggressive? <BR><BR><I>2. </I>At
what threshold is a native stand damaging to the community? <BR><BR><I>3.
</I>What plants are commonly associated with
native <I>Phragmites </I>in the <st1:place w:st="on">Great Lakes</st1:place>
region? <BR>If you are interested, I can send you a more detailed methodology
for our monitoring project, including what parameters we will be sampling.
<BR> <BR>As an additional note, I’d encourage people to mention
there is a native variety of Phragmites and differentiate between the two
strains in any publications or documents. <BR> <BR>I look forward to
your input! <BR> <BR> <BR>Thanks again, <BR>Katy Cummings
<BR>katy.e.cummings@gmail.com <BR><BR
style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR
style="mso-special-character: line-break"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: #888888"><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: green">Joe Franke<BR>Sapo
Gordo Ecological Restoration Services<BR>Chile Dog Designs, Inc.<BR>1228
Lafayette Dr. NE<BR>Albuquerque, NM 87106 USA<BR>ph: 505-515-8736
<tel:505-515-8736> <tel:505-515-8736 <tel:505-515-8736>
>
<BR>Sapogordoeco@comcast.net<BR></SPAN><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's
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Ecological Restoration Services<BR>Chile Dog Designs, Inc.<BR>1228 <st1:address
w:st="on"><st1:Street w:st="on">Lafayette Dr.</st1:Street> <st1:City
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