<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Julie's point is well-stated and underscores
how important it is to consider the context within which these terms have
been defined. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Terms are defined for specific purposes,
to accomplish specific goals, mandates, or to define monetary outlays or
requirements. And this is especially interesting in the sciences
- because we want to fit natural processes and organisms into manmade boxes
so that we can discuss, control, compare, destroy, conserve them. When
you move from one context to the next, the same term may not mean the same
thing. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">Case in point: The term "endangered"
</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">In the United States, there is a legal
definition of the term for the purposes of the Endangered Species Act.
This definition is very specific and differs from the layman's term.
It also differs from the same term used in other conservation contexts,
such as that as defined by the IUCN (</font><font size=3>International
Union for Conservation of Nature</font><font size=3 face="sans-serif">).
These definitions serve to define and delimit the term so that everyone
is "talking" about the same thing.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif"><br>
The problem comes in when we create legal definitions for words that already
exist in the English language and then we wonder why the general public
(and even experts) "misuse" the terms.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">To the extent that the alien invasive
species movement is aimed squarely at non-native species, they have defined
these pre-existing terms to describe their goal/role within that circle.
Because the term invasive has been officially defined an a non-native in
that arena, it has necessitated devising alternate definitions for native
invaseives. Here's a great example from NRCS: </font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=100% bgcolor=white><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="Verdana"><b>Opportunistic
Native Plant </b></font>
<p><font size=3>A native plant that is able to take advantage of disturbance
to the soil or existing vegetation to spread quickly and out-compete the
other plants on the disturbed site. </font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="sans-serif">How many people think dandelions are
invasive? Now, how many think they are non-native? You might
be surprised to learn that this renowned "invader" of our pristine
lawns "comes in" native, too (</font><a href="http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TAOFC"><font size=3 face="sans-serif">http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TAOFC).
Opportunistic, weeds, fast spreaders, noxious ...call it what you will,
some of our natives (including poison ivy) are that, too.</font></a>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.<br>
Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife Service-International
Affairs<br>
Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance<br>
4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110<br>
Arlington, VA 22203<br>
703-358-1708 x1753<br>
FAX: 703-358-2276<br>
<br>
Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants.
<br>
<www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal><br>
<br>
Follow International Affairs<br>
> on Twitter </font><a href=http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl<br>
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"Randall, John L"
<jrandall@email.unc.edu></b> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/28/2012 07:05 PM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Julie Knudson <jknudson@tamariskcoalition.org>,
"Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov" <Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org"
<native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org>, "apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
<apwg@lists.plantconservation.org>, "Katy Cummings" <katy.e.cummings@gmail.com></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=4 face="Calibri">Thank you Julie. You said everything that
I have been composing in my head! I will also add that “invasive” –
as you define it – is also the standard international usage. </font>
<br><font size=4 face="Calibri">Johnny Randall</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">Johnny Randall, Ph.D.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">Director of Conservation
Programs</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">North Carolina Botanical
Garden</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">CB 3375</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">Chapel Hill NC 27599</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">ncbg.unc.edu</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">(W) 919-962-0522</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri">(C) 919-923-0100</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=4 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#004080 face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Julie
Knudson<b><br>
Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:57 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov<b><br>
Cc:</b> native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org; apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
Katy Cummings<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] [PCA] Native Phragmites Data</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">I would throw in a couple more
cents here...</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">To Bob:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">"An invasive species is a
non-native species whose introduction does or is likely to cause economic
or environmental harm or harm to human, animal, or plant health."
- National Invasive Species Council</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">"Invasive Plant: A plant that
is both non-native and able to establish on many sites, grow quickly, and
spread to the point of disrupting plant communities or ecosystems. Note:
>From the Presidential Executive Order 13112 (February 1999): 'An invasive
species is defined as a species that is 1) non-native (or alien) to the
ecosystem under consideration and 2) whose introduction causes or is likely
to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health.' In contrast
to item 2) of the Executive Order, which includes plants invasive in agricultural
settings, the Connecticut Invasive Plant Working Group lists non-native
plants as invasive only if they invade minimally managed (natural) areas."
- Natural Resource Conservation Service</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">I would just be careful (depending
on what circles you are speaking in) in saying that a native plant can
be 'invasive', as officially I think 'invasive species' are defined as
non-natives. It is just semantics, but I might argue that native plants
can be 'weedy' or 'aggressive', but not technically 'invasive'.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">To Katy - How are you addressing
the potential native-invasive Phragmites hybrid issue? I would be interested
in hearing more about your project - sounds interesting! </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Julie</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Julie Knudson</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Tamarisk Coalition</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">970-256-7400</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:25 AM,
<</font><a href=mailto:Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>Patricia_DeAngelis@fws.gov</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Arial"><br>
Cheers, Bob!</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Arial"><br>
My two cents: </font>
<ul>
<li><font size=3 face="Arial">A native can most definitely be an invasive.
Teal and Mark's comments elucidate that issue well. </font>
<li><font size=3 face="Arial">I'm not sure what list you might be referring
to, but from what I understand of the Federal Noxious Weed list, I believe
that plants that are either naturalized or have completely overrun the
US will not end up on that list. I believe that list tends to include species
that are in the earlier stages of invasion where prevention of further
influxes can still make a difference for slowing the spread. I also doubt
it would be on any state list - those often tend to be geared to non-natives
and ornamental plants - of which poison ivy is neither. </font></ul><font size=3 face="Arial"><br>
It seems like poison ivy falls into a strange no-man's land - as a native,
it doesn't seem to fit on the PCA ALien Plant WOrking Group listserve -
yet the expertise on that list may be more appropriate (versus this general
native plant listserve) because they are the folks with specific insight
on invasive species biology. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Arial"><br>
I wonder if any of the National Park Service Exotic Plant Management Teams
have identified it as among their top ten target taxa in any of their regions?
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Arial"><br>
-Patricia</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Arial"><br>
Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.<br>
Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife Service-International
Affairs<br>
Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance<br>
4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110<br>
Arlington, VA 22203</font><font size=3 color=blue face="Arial"><u><br>
</u></font><a href="tel:703-358-1708%20x1753" target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Arial"><u>703-358-1708
x1753</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Arial"><br>
FAX: </font><a href="tel:703-358-2276" target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Arial"><u>703-358-2276</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants.
<br>
<</font><a href=http://www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Arial"><u>www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Arial">><br>
<br>
Follow International Affairs<br>
> on Twitter </font><a href=http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Arial"><u>http://twitter.com/USFWSInternatl<br>
> on Facebook </u></font></a><a href=http://www.facebook.com/USFWS_InternationalAffairs target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Arial"><u>http://www.facebook.com/USFWS_InternationalAffairs</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
</font>
<p>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=29%><font size=1 face="Arial"><b>Robert Layton Beyfuss <</b></font><a href=mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><b><u>rlb14@cornell.edu</u></b></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial"><b>></b>
<br>
Sent by: </font><a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<p><font size=1 face="Arial">08/27/2012 09:45 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<td width=70%>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=5%>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="Arial">To</font></div>
<td width=94%><font size=1 face="Arial">Katy Cummings <</font><a href=mailto:katy.e.cummings@gmail.com target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>katy.e.cummings@gmail.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">>,
"</font><a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">"
<</font><a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="Arial">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="Arial">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">Re: [PCA] Native Phragmites Data</font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Calibri"><br>
Hi All</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Calibri"><br>
I am a bit confused and hope you can enlighten me. I thought that the basic
definition of an invasive plant was that it had to be exotic. There
are many native plants that create almost solid monocultures such as common
goldenrod yet can it be “undesirable” at any density? . Poison ivy can
overrun entire areas but I have never seen it listed as invasive. <br>
Bob <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Tahoma"><b><br>
From:</b> </font><a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Tahoma">
[mailto:</font><a href="mailto:native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>native-plants-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Tahoma">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Katy Cummings<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, August 20, 2012 9:28 PM<b><br>
To:</b> </font><a href="mailto:native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>native-plants@lists.plantconservation.org</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Tahoma"><b><br>
Subject:</b> [PCA] Native Phragmites Data</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
<br>
Fellow Conservationists- <br>
<br>
I work for The Nature Conservancy (TNC) in Door County, WI. My main
project this summer has been mapping exotic and native stands of Phragmites
(<i>Phragmites australis</i> and <i>Phragmites australis americanus</i>)
throughout TNC properties in Door County. I have some questions and
experiences to share with you as our organization tries to learn more about
the native/exotic Phragmites issue. <br>
<br>
We all know what havoc the exotic Phragmites subspecies can wreak on an
ecosystem, but do we know anything about the native subspecies?
<b>Is there any research out there showing that the native Phragmites can
behave as aggressively as the exotic? </b>In Door County, the native
usually grows in scattered to moderate densities along with other wetland
plants, with a few patches showing denser concentrations. There are
a few areas where the native has reached undesirable “dense” concentrations,
but as of yet we don’t know why. <br>
<b><br>
What other plants are associated with the native Phragmites?</b> TNC
will be setting up monitoring plots soon on some of our native patches,
and when we get that data I’ll send it to any interested people from this
list. The only list I’ve been able to find is from a chapter by
Laura Meyerson et al. in “Invasions in North American Salt Marshes” entitled
“Phragmites australis in Eastern North America: A Historical and Ecological
Perspective”. Does anyone know of other lists from different regions
of the U.S.? <br>
<b><br>
Are there any patterns to where native Phragmites is found? </b>During
my mapping of the plant in Door County, I’ve generally found native Phragmites
set back from the edge of waterways and growing in more marshy areas. <br>
<b><br>
What have you all seen as far as size of patches, number of patches, location,
rate of spread, etc. of the native Phragmites in your area? </b>Most
of the wetlands in Door County are fed by alkaline ground water discharge
as a result of movement through the underlying dolomitic bedrock. I
assume that because of these alkaline conditions we have a higher population
of native Phragmites than perhaps other regions of the Midwest. Is
this true? <br>
<br>
To help answer these questions, The Nature Conservancy’s Door Peninsula
office has temporarily halted eradication measures of native lineages of
<i>Phragmites</i>. We are in the process of developing long-term
monitoring plots in native <i>Phragmites </i>stands throughout Nature Conservancy
holdings in Door County, WI. The goals of this monitoring project
will be to assess the following questions: </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><i>1.</i></font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><i>
</i></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Under
what conditions do native stands become aggressive? </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><i>2.</i></font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><i>
</i></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">At what
threshold is a native stand damaging to the community? </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><i>3.</i></font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><i>
</i></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">What
plants are commonly associated with native <i>Phragmites </i>in the Great
Lakes region? <br>
If you are interested, I can send you a more detailed methodology for our
monitoring project, including what parameters we will be sampling.
<br>
<br>
As an additional note, I’d encourage people to mention there is a native
variety of Phragmites and differentiate between the two strains in any
publications or documents. <br>
<br>
I look forward to your input! <br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks again, <br>
Katy Cummings </font><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=mailto:katy.e.cummings@gmail.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>katy.e.cummings@gmail.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Katherine E. Cummings<br>
Door Peninsula Conservation Intern<br>
The Nature Conservancy<br>
Sturgeon Bay, WI</font><font size=2 face="Courier New">_______________________________________________<br>
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