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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>Y'all:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>OMG, it's worse than I thought! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>Spraying from a helicopter? Ya gotta be kidding!
The only spraying I will even think about is that with a cone that stops any
collateral damage, and that only rarely. I want to do some experimenting with
wick devices to prevent any atomization of herbicide at all. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>WT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>"Nine-tenths of the hell being raised in the world
is well-intentioned." --Anonymous</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4>----- Original Message -----
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT
size=4><B>From:</B> </FONT><A title=rlb14@cornell.edu
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu"><FONT size=4>Robert Layton
Beyfuss</FONT></A><FONT size=4> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>To:</B> </FONT><A
title=landrest@cox.net href="mailto:landrest@cox.net"><FONT size=4>Wayne
Tyson</FONT></A><FONT size=4> ; </FONT><A title=the.tsuga@gmail.com
href="mailto:the.tsuga@gmail.com"><FONT size=4>Ryan McEwan</FONT></A><FONT
size=4> ; </FONT><A title=jmbarr@academicplanet.com
href="mailto:jmbarr@academicplanet.com"><FONT size=4>John</FONT></A><FONT
size=4> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Cc:</B> </FONT><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT
size=4>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT size=4> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 05, 2012
7:58 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Subject:</B> RE: [APWG]
Ecosystems Invasions Re: Do ecosystems resist invasion?Invasion and cropping
Re: rate of change</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>It is interesting to see how the discourse on this list serve has
evolved over the past years in a positive manner. It seems that years ago many
of the posts had to do with eradication efforts of invasives and not much else
“I.e. Florida school children wage war on invasive exotic plants” and
similar stories. Posters were produced with pictures of plants that were to be
“killed on sight”. I recall attending a workshop years ago in West Virginia
where a manager who worked for the Nature Conservancy showed slides of a
helicopter indiscriminately spraying glyphosate (Round Up) over 50 acres of
wetlands with the rationalization that since there were so many invasive
species present there now, the only hope was to kill off everything and let
“nature” start over from scratch. I could not distinguish this activity
greatly from the coal companies removing entire mountain tops and allowing
nature to start from scratch. Indeed this policy is still practiced in many
situations, regrettably. I am pleased to see more and more posts that think
beyond this. <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p><FONT
size=4> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>From:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT size=4>
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Wayne
Tyson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 02, 2012 7:00 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Ryan
McEwan; John<BR><B>Cc:</B> apwg@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B>
[APWG] Ecosystems Invasions Re: Do ecosystems resist invasion? Invasion and
cropping Re: rate of change<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Y'all:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The excellent
contributions to this subject continue to come in--and to think some had lost
faith in this listerv and skedaddled. (At least some told me off-list that
they were so disappointed with the quality of the discourse that they were
leaving.) </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">This is a good
time to thank Olivia for maintaining this list. THANKS, Olivia!
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Ryan makes good
points; I'll respond within his text below [[thus WT]]. I hope we continue to
get further inputs like this. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">But here are some
overall observations for what they might be worth . .
.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">1. "Ecosystems"
that are referred to as such in the plural are really convenient subdivisions
of living organisms that we believe to be distinguishable from other
"ecosystems." There always is a certain amount of overlap, sometimes a little,
sometimes a lot. The real phenomena don't "care" one whit how we define or
divide them, we do. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">2. "Invasions"
are just how ecosystems work. Disturbances, and the colonization of changed
places by organisms different from the ones which previously occupied the
space of interest are just the way the world works. Mine tailings and
landslides, even volcanoes, have something in common--they radically
change the ecosystems that existed before the disturbance.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The early
colonists, or "pioneer species," are organisms whose requirements are met by
the changed environment and which have a means of dispersing into the new
niches/environments. Those species whose needs are not met by the changed
environments/habitats tend not to succeed, but if their propagules continue to
"try," there may come a time when, after further changes, that they, too, may
establish successful individuals or colonies, and so on. This has been called
"succession," but I'm not fond of the term, because I believe that there is no
convincing evidence that organisms "succeed" each other. In my view, all is
adaptation to change, and change is in the details--some of which we may know,
some which we don't know. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The "invasions"
which concern "invasion ecologists/biologists" tend to be undesirable for some
reason(s), and sometimes it's just because the organism is new to the
neighborhood, as it were, an "alien." But the underlying processes are
essentially the same. Invasions of "intact" ecosystems are often the result of
culture in action, humans acting as propagule vectors and cultivators of
conditions favorable to the "undesirables." We (myself included) tend to favor
indigenous wildflowers, for example, over the stickery annual grasses that
have replaced them and persist to the detriment of the previous occupants--and
even systems far away, by altering things like hydrology and fire.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">In "undisturbed"
ecosystems, say, following a tree-fall, "pioneer" species (some indigenous,
some "alien") typically move in to colonize the changed
environment/habitat. Plants that do this are often those that have evolved to
occupy such sites and will, in time, fade away, or undergo population
decline and reduction in fecundity. This phenomenon can be interpreted as
"resistance to invasion," and is commonly one of the goals of most
restoration projects. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">This condition is
one desired by invasion biologists, but for some reason not all IB's use this
phenomenon to their advantage. For some reason, some IB's believe that simply
killing the undesirables is their only option. One problem with not letting
succession play out is that the conditions produced by whacking and digging
and spraying and such is that the changes that the succession process produces
don't happen at all or are greatly reduced, prolonging a return to "normal."
Sometimes it makes things worse for indigenous species and better for the
alien colonists. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=the.tsuga@gmail.com href="mailto:the.tsuga@gmail.com">Ryan McEwan</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=jmbarr@academicplanet.com
href="mailto:jmbarr@academicplanet.com">John</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Friday, March
02, 2012 6:45 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [APWG] Do
ecosystems resist invasion?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>I think this notion is derived from the fact
that many invasive species do well following disturbance. Many
invasive plants, for example, have population biology traits that help them
arrive on disturbed sites (e.g., long distance dispersal) and proliferate in
the presence of the abundant resources [[Since "intact" ecosystems tend to
sequester almost all of the available nutrients, the resulting paucity of
available nutrients may be one factor in producing resistance to invasion;
on the other hand, the death of plants, including weeds, tends to release
sequestered nutrients, thus helping the invasive aliens to succeed,
reproduce, and disperse. WT]] that are available in such
locations. There is also the notion of the "empty niche"
in invasion ecology which suggests that species do well when they
invade habitats where there is "niche space" available due to the absence of
a native species. Of course, that native species might have been made
absent by some process that leaves the system less than "intact." [[My own
definition of "niche" is a bit different from that, perhaps classical
definition. I don't see niches so much as places as I do conditions
favorable to organisms. If others differ, I would like to hear more about
the reasons for other definitions. I do, however, believe that it's
appropriate to speak of niches as places where conditions favorable to
organisms exist, and that certainly can be valid for places like tree-fall
areas being opened up niches for colonizing species, alien or indigenous.
Such places are self-evident when one finds weeds where windfalls throw up a
pile of subsoil. Clearly, such conditions are suitable for the weeds
released N, broken mycorrhizal mat, more light, etc.
WT]]<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>What this generally means is that if you
were to compare a large landscape, you would very likely find that disturbed
sites have many more invasive species that areas that have been carefully
preserved. <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>Sadly, this is NOT an indication that the
"intact" preserves are "invasion-proof." In fact, what I think we are
finding is simply that the rate of spread into more intact systems is slower
than for disturbed sites. [[Here we need some detail. What, for example, is
slowing the spread in the "intact" ecosystems of the preserve. WT]]
Slower rate, but the invasives are still penetrating, inexorably in many
cases. [[Yes, I have seen such phenomena, but the mechanisms involved, hence
the right kind of management, don't seem to exist. I suggest that under such
conditions we might guess wrong, whereas with better information, we could
avoid doing wrong. Again, details. WT]]<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>The other issue here is the whole idea of an
"intact" ecosystem doesn't really hold up under scrutiny. [[As discussed
earlier, it's not yes or no, it's the DEGREE of "intactness."
WT]] The fact is that all ecosystems experience "disturbances."
Old-growth forests, for instance, have tree-fall gaps that are a crucial
part of the ecology of those systems. These gaps can be invaded.
Does a tree-fall gap make the system less "intact" especially if that
is a crucial, indeed, descriptive piece of the systems ecology? [[It may
indeed be descriptive, but it remains an observation, not an explanation of
the mechanisms. WT]] I think not. Same could be argued for
a riparian systems and flooding. Surely flooding is part of the
system's basic biology- can we say it is less "intact" then when a flood
occurs? There are a spectrum of potential disturbance processes
that influence any ecosystem. So the idea of "intact" is
relative. [[Agreed. In fact, many weeds evolved under the disturbance
regime of floods. But look at relatively undisturbed riparian areas--how is
it that they are still as "intact" or functional as they may have been prior
to the invasion of Europeans in the 15th century?
WT]]<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>My two cents: sites that are massively
disturbed are very likely to be invaded by species with a "weedy" population
biology, and in many cases the best members of that flora/fauna are
invasives. Sites that are less disturbed, are likely more "resistant"
but invasives certainly can, and do, penetrate those systems. [[I understand
the logic and the "evidence." But I think we need to know more about the
mechanisms. Further, I think ecologists are kidding themselves about the
adequacy of observations that are limited to the external phenomena and may
be a bit hasty about drawing final conclusions about cause and effect. That
is, they need to get more "scientific" as well as observational. Spoken as a
compulsive observer who has himself so sinned.
WT]]<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>Ryan <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> -- <BR>Ryan W. McEwan,
PhD<BR>Assistant Professor<BR>Department of Biology<BR>The University of
Dayton<BR>300 College Park, Dayton, OH
45469-2320<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>Email: </FONT><A
href="mailto:ryan.mcewan@udayton.edu"><FONT
size=4>ryan.mcewan@udayton.edu</FONT></A><BR><FONT
size=4>Lab: </FONT><A
href="http://academic.udayton.edu/ryanmcewan"><FONT
size=4>http://academic.udayton.edu/ryanmcewan</FONT></A><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><o:p><FONT
size=4> </FONT></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:02 AM, John
<</FONT><A href="mailto:jmbarr@academicplanet.com"><FONT
size=4>jmbarr@academicplanet.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>With all due respect, and not to be a
bother, but ...... I'd like to question the notion that intact ecosystems
resist invasion, but I do not know who proposed it nor what evidence they
have for it. None the less I hear it bandied about again and again.
<o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>Questions:<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>1) How does any species ever colonize an
island? Aren't the island's ecosystems as "intact" as any
other?<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>2) Fire ants like many invasives arrived in
North American (and around the globe) without their
natural adversaries. How can a native fire ant "resist" invasion
when they have long developed adversaries and the invasive species has none?
This same pattern is repeated again and again with species after
species, else why would "biocontrols" be effective or even
considered?<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>3) I fear a circular argument, invasion
occurred, hence the ecosystem was not intact. Is there any ecosystem
that is intact? Really, with very few exceptions, if you name an
ecosystem, I bet I can find: A) a prior human impact on that ecosystem and
B) a species that will successfully invade.<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>Enlighten me, please......is there
scientific evidence for this notion?<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>john in Austin<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4>On Mar 1, 2012, at 2:49 PM, Ty Harrison
wrote:<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR><o:p><FONT size=4></FONT></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">APWG: I like Tyson's
metaphor (sexist?): Whizzing up wind is what many of use are doing
rather than using locally relevant ecological models as he recommends.
Or as others ecologists have said: weeds and other invaders occupy
"emtpy niches in the old corral". But this only goes so far.
Many weeds can insinuate themselves into these "empty niches" in disturbance
prone (drought?) ecosystems which we have out west (eg. Cheatgrass,
Cranesbill, Star Thistle, Dalmatian Toadflax etc. etc. etc.). Ty
Harrison</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT size=4>-----
Original Message -----<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=landrest@cox.net href="mailto:landrest@cox.net" target=_blank>Wayne
Tyson</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=schenkmj@earthlink.net href="mailto:schenkmj@earthlink.net"
target=_blank>Michael Schenk</A> ; <A title=ialm@erols.com
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target=_blank>Marc
Imlay</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Wednesday,
February 29, 2012 4:41 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> [APWG]
Invasion and cropping Re: rate of
change<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p><FONT
size=4> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Y'all:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">When you
change something in an ecosystem, other things change, including
"invasions" (aka colonization). Ecosystems tend toward sequestering most
or effectively all of the nutrients in the biomass--or try to. Much of
colonization consists of a drive in that direction. This is why some
ecologists have said that an ecosystem in equilibrium resists invasion.
This is a sustained/sustainable situation, but that is far different from
the invented and spun context in which "sustainable" is bandied about
today.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To cut to the
chase, modern agronomic practice is 180 degrees out of phase with this
principle, hence with ecosystems. Study sites where the best ginseng
grows, and study them completely. Then compare those conditions with the
ones in which you are attempting to grow it as a crop. If there is any
significant difference, it is likely that you are whizzing
upwind.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">This is
already indulging in more conjecture than justified by the scant
information about the ecological context of your project, so take it with
a grain of salt and see if any of the principles mentioned help. I hope
so.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">WT</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message -----</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=schenkmj@earthlink.net href="mailto:schenkmj@earthlink.net"
target=_blank><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Michael
Schenk</SPAN></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=ialm@erols.com href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Marc
Imlay</SPAN></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</SPAN></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Tuesday,
February 28, 2012 4:21 PM</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> [APWG]
rate of change</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p><FONT
size=4> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 13.5pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>Bingo! It's the rate of change that counts. When a new species
arrives every thousand years, a time scale roughly consistent with
"natural" climate change disturbances, the ecosystem has a chance to
respond and integrate the new species.<BR><BR>If you keep on rocking
the boat and never give it a chance to steady out, somebody's gonna
get wet. Sometimes I feel like we're arguing over angel dancing space.
The fact is, the boat is swamping, and we need to slow down the rate
of change.<BR><BR>I'm a small landholder, trying to plant sustainable
harvests of ginseng, etc., in the face of encroachment from garlic
mustard, stiltgrass, tearthumb. I don't have the time or resources for
massive intervention. I need affordable, time-efficient methods of
non-toxic removal. I've already spent hundreds of hours and many
dollars on weedwhackers and native seed. For me, the combination of
mechanical removal and planting native grasses is at least holding the
stiltgrass steady. I'd like to learn about other successful practices
that fit with a modest budget and a working
schedule.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Mike <BR><BR>-----Original
Message----- <BR>From: Marc Imlay <BR>Sent: Feb 28, 2012
7:35 AM <BR>To: "'Hempy-Mayer,Kara L (CONTR) -
KEC-4'" , </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4> <BR>Cc: </FONT><A
href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4> <BR>Subject: Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration
Collapse <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Just
to clarify, ecosystems are dynamic and constantly changing, but
not at the present rate of change. When endangered species were
protected with national and international laws and programs several
decades ago, we agreed that species naturally become extinct over
time. It is just the rate of extintion that had increased a thousand
fold and needed to be reversed so new species had an ecosystem to
evolve in.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Marc Imlay,
PhD,</SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Conservation
biologist, Park Ranger Office</SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="tel:%28301%29%20442-5657" target=_blank><FONT size=4>(301)
442-5657</FONT></A><FONT size=4> cell</FONT></SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> </FONT><A title=blocked::mailto:ialm@erols.com
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>ialm@erols.com</FONT></A></SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Natural and
Historical Resources Division</SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The Maryland-National Capital Park and
Planning Commission</SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=blocked::http://www.pgparks.com/ href="http://www.pgparks.com/"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>www.pgparks.com</FONT></A></SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p><FONT
size=4> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></B></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 13.5pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>From:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4> [</FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Hempy-Mayer,Kara L (CONTR) -
KEC-4<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2012 2:14
PM<BR><B>To:</B> </FONT><A
href="mailto:'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>'<BR><B>Cc:</B> </FONT><A
href="mailto:'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Agreed.
I’ve heard many people argue against the ideas of “ecosystem
preservation” and “restoration,” but it’s usually a matter of
semantics. What restoration and preservation are trying to
accomplish is to maintain diversity on a global scale: there are
ecosystems here that worked well before we starting impacting them so
profoundly: we attempt to “restore” them by taking out what we put in
(exotic weeds), or trying to repair what we damaged (soil structure,
hydrology, etc.). Then, hopefully, the previous ecosystem
processes can reestablish.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">As
to the argument about increased carbon dioxide levels: I’ve always
wondered about this. The argument that increased CO2 in the
atmosphere has a profound effect on plant growth assumes that nothing
else is limiting plant growth. From my limited background in plant
physiology, there are usually many things limiting plant growth:
macronutrients, micronutrients, water, and light. In balance,
can CO2 have that big of an effect, even if it is limiting? Are there
field studies that have found evidence for
this?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thank
you for the opportunity to comment
-Kara</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>From:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4> [</FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>William
Stringer<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2012 8:41
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Robert Layton Beyfuss; Katie Fite; Wayne
Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B> </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>; </FONT><A href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
size=4><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration
Collapse</FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">As to ecosystem
restoration , we are not proposing to make a man-made Hope Diamond
here. We are proposing to work from our admittedly limited
knowledge base of what should be there, and what should not. We
take out, to the degree that we can, the should-nots, particularly the
known exotic invasive should-nots. We then try to place into the
site local-source propagules of known natives in a patchwork of
mixtures of relatively compatible species. At that point we have
probably done most of what we can contribute. We can manage the
site to the degree that we can simulate natural disturbance
phenomena. But mostly at this point we stay out of the way and
let natural phenomena drive the restoration. The only exception
would be if outbreaks of exotic invasive species begin to
threaten. Then, we monitor and
learn</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">What we cannot do is let
micro-analysis of the term restoration immobilize us into total
inaction.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT
size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Bill
Stringer</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT size=4>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>From:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4> [</FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>] On Behalf Of Robert Layton Beyfuss [</FONT><A
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>rlb14@cornell.edu</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2012 10:26
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Katie Fite; Wayne
Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B> </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>; </FONT><A href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
size=4><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration
Collapse</FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
do not understand how ecosystems can be restored since I consider them
as dynamic and constantly changing. It is not possible to completely
re-create the environmental conditions that led to a given ecosystem
at any given time in the past. If ecosystems represent the
interactions of living and environmental factors, to restore an
ecosystem requires replicating the previous environmental factors that
affect the living organisms. The level of carbon dioxide in our
atmosphere has doubled in the past 80 years. Plant growth,
reproduction and survival is profoundly affected by carbon dioxide
levels. I consider attempts to restore ecosystems as no
more than human’s creating new ecosystems using species of plants that
previously occurred because humans liked the previous once more than
the current one. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4>From:</FONT></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><FONT
size=4> </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4> [</FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Katie
Fite<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2012 9:12
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B> </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4>; </FONT><A href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank><FONT
size=4>rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
size=4><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration
Collapse</FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=4> <o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT
size=4>Wayne,<BR><BR>I am interested in the discussion.<BR><BR>And
discussions of what ecological restoration is, and also discussions of
how the term "restoration" is currently being used by agencies or at
times industry - to describe imposing major disturbances
on mature or old growth woody vegetation communities - with such
disturbances often then leading to weed invasions.<BR><BR>Katie
Fite<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p><FONT size=4> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><FONT size=4>No virus
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