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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>John, I ain't due no more respect than anyone else,
and you have an excellent point. I took John's (Jack Ewel's) word for it
(admittedly a bad practice). See <SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">Ewel,
J. J. 1987. Restoration is the ultimate test of ecological theory. pp.
31-33<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><I
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: medium; WORD-SPACING: 0px; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-VARIANT: normal; orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">in</I><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">:
W. R.Jordan, M. E. Gilpin, and J. D. Aber (eds.). Restoration Ecology: a
synthetic approach to ecological research. Cambridge University Press,
Cambridge. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">Ewel's
crucible was Hawaii, I believe, and if any island is more "invaded" than that
place, please (I don't wanna know but I have to) let me know. If any place could
test the hypothesis, that must be among the severest. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">WT</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">PS:
I'm inserting some comments into John's text below [[thus
WT]].</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4><SPAN
style="DISPLAY: inline! important; FLOAT: none; WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium 'Times New Roman'; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); orphans: 2; widows: 2; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">Suggestion:
When changing the subject line, retain previous ones if relevant.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jmbarr@academicplanet.com
href="mailto:jmbarr@academicplanet.com">John</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 01, 2012 9:02
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [APWG] Do ecosystems resist
invasion?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>With all due respect, and not to be a bother, but ...... I'd like to
question the notion that intact ecosystems resist invasion, but I do not know
who proposed it nor what evidence they have for it. None the less I hear
it bandied about again and again. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[[Ok, well, all generalizations have exceptions.
But then, the devil is in the details, right? In ecology (lacking, as it does,
laws and other absolutisms) some of us rush in where angels fear to tread
and try out ideas supported by some pretty thin threads. Lacking sufficient
information upon which better "conclusions" might be based, we conjecture from
inference and provisionally accept the preponderance of the evidence rather
than "beyond a reasonable doubt" or a "scientific certainty," at lease until
better evidence shows up. Similarly, these workaday hypotheses should always
remain under the gun of contrary evidence. This works us forward rather than
backward. So I would put it this way: Based on what we know now, does the
reasonable-man/woman standard lead one to provisionally accept the
proposition that resistance to invasion is more true than untrue or more
untrue than true? Then we keep testing and evaluating new information.
WT]]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Questions:</DIV>
<DIV>1) How does any species ever colonize an island? [[Let me count the
ways--by wind, by wave, by ship, by flotsam and jetsam . . . WT]] Aren't the
island's ecosystems as "intact" as any other? [[I dunno--maybe they're more
vulnerable? WT]]</DIV>
<DIV>2) Fire ants like many invasives arrived in North American (and around
the globe) without their natural adversaries. How can a native fire
ant "resist" invasion when they have long developed adversaries and the
invasive species has none? This same pattern is repeated again and again
with species after species, else why would "biocontrols" be effective or even
considered? [[Good question; why would they? Because we yearn for magic
bullets? WT]]</DIV>
<DIV>3) I fear a circular argument, invasion occurred, hence the ecosystem was
not intact. [[I don't know anyone else who has made this argument. Please
enlighten me. WT]] Is there any ecosystem that is intact?
Really, with very few exceptions, if you name an ecosystem, I bet I can
find: A) a prior human impact on that ecosystem and B) a species that will
successfully invade. [[I wouldn't argue these points, but what's your
evidence? WT]]</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Enlighten me, please......is there scientific evidence for this notion?
[[I look forward to your further contributions in support of the contrary.
WT]]</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>john in Austin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>On Mar 1, 2012, at 2:49 PM, Ty Harrison wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
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<DIV><FONT size=2>APWG: I like Tyson's metaphor (sexist?):
Whizzing up wind is what many of use are doing rather than using locally
relevant ecological models as he recommends. Or as others ecologists
have said: weeds and other invaders occupy "emtpy niches in the old
corral". But this only goes so far. Many weeds can insinuate
themselves into these "empty niches" in disturbance prone
(drought?) ecosystems which we have out west (eg. Cheatgrass,
Cranesbill, Star Thistle, Dalmatian Toadflax etc. etc. etc.). Ty
Harrison</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial"><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=landrest@cox.net
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">Wayne Tyson</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=schenkmj@earthlink.net
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:schenkmj@earthlink.net">Michael Schenk</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>;<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A title=ialm@erols.com
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com">Marc Imlay</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Wednesday, February 29, 2012 4:41
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[APWG] Invasion and cropping Re:
rate of change</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Y'all:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>When you change something in an ecosystem, other things
change, including "invasions" (aka colonization). Ecosystems tend toward
sequestering most or effectively all of the nutrients in the biomass--or
try to. Much of colonization consists of a drive in that direction. This
is why some ecologists have said that an ecosystem in equilibrium resists
invasion. This is a sustained/sustainable situation, but that is far
different from the invented and spun context in which "sustainable" is
bandied about today.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To cut to the chase, modern agronomic practice is 180
degrees out of phase with this principle, hence with ecosystems. Study
sites where the best ginseng grows, and study them completely. Then
compare those conditions with the ones in which you are attempting to grow
it as a crop. If there is any significant difference, it is likely that
you are whizzing upwind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This is already indulging in more conjecture than
justified by the scant information about the ecological context of your
project, so take it with a grain of salt and see if any of the principles
mentioned help. I hope so.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>WT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4>----- Original Message
-----</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial"><FONT
size=4><B>From:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></FONT><A
title=schenkmj@earthlink.net
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:schenkmj@earthlink.net"><FONT size=4>Michael
Schenk</FONT></A><FONT size=4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>To:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></FONT><A title=ialm@erols.com
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com"><FONT size=4>Marc Imlay</FONT></A><FONT
size=4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Cc:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></FONT><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT
size=4>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:21
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[APWG] rate of
change</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid"><FONT
size=4>Bingo! It's the rate of change that counts. When a new species
arrives every thousand years, a time scale roughly consistent with
"natural" climate change disturbances, the ecosystem has a chance to
respond and integrate the new species.<BR><BR>If you keep on rocking
the boat and never give it a chance to steady out, somebody's gonna
get wet. Sometimes I feel like we're arguing over angel dancing space.
The fact is, the boat is swamping, and we need to slow down the rate
of change.<BR><BR>I'm a small landholder, trying to plant sustainable
harvests of ginseng, etc., in the face of encroachment from garlic
mustard, stiltgrass, tearthumb. I don't have the time or resources for
massive intervention. I need affordable, time-efficient methods of
non-toxic removal. I've already spent hundreds of hours and many
dollars on weedwhackers and native seed. For me, the combination of
mechanical removal and planting native grasses is at least holding the
stiltgrass steady. I'd like to learn about other successful practices
that fit with a modest budget and a working
schedule.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Mike<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>From:
Marc Imlay<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><IALM@EROLS.COM><BR>Sent: Feb
28, 2012 7:35 AM<SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>To:
"'Hempy-Mayer,Kara L (CONTR) - KEC-4'"<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><KLHEMPYMAYER@BPA.GOV>,<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>Cc:<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org">rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR>Subject: Re: [APWG] [RWG]
Ecosystem Restoration Collapse<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><BR><ZZZHTML
xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"
xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"
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xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><ZZZHEAD><ZZZMETA
http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><ZZZMETA
content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19190" name="GENERATOR"><ZZZ!--[IF
!mso]=""><ZZZ![ENDIF]--><ZZZ!--[IF 9]="" mso="" gte=""><xml><o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"></o:shapedefaults><zzz![endif]--><zzz!--[if gte="" mso="" 9]=""><xml><o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"><o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"></o:idmap></o:shapelayout><zzz![endif]--></zzz![endif]--><zzzbody link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div dir="ltr" align="left"><strong><font face="Arial"><span class="234492712-28022012"><font color="#000000" size="3"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">Just to clarify, ecosystems are dynamic and constantly changing, but not at the present rate of change. When endangered species were protected with national and international laws and programs several decades ago, we agreed that species naturally become extinct over time. It is just the rate of extintion that had increased a thousand fold and needed to be reversed so new species had an ecosystem to evolve in.</span></font></span></font></strong></div><div dir="ltr" align="left"><strong><font face="Arial"><span class="234492712-28022012"><font color="#000000" size="3"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "></span></font></span></font></strong> </div><div dir="ltr" align="left"><strong><font face="Arial"><span class="234492712-28022012"><font color="#000000" size="3"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial" size="3"><strong><div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"><span class="578543911-24022012"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Marc Imlay, PhD,</span></b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: blue; "><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Conservation biologist, Park Ranger Office</span></b><span style="color: blue; "><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">(301) 442-5657 cell</span></b><span style="color: blue; "><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: green; "> <a title="blocked::mailto:ialm@erols.com" href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">ialm@erols.com</a></span></b><span style="color: blue; "><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">Natural and Historical Resources Division</span></b><span style="color: blue; "><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: navy; ">The Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission</span></b><span style="color: blue; "><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: green; "><a title="blocked::http://www.pgparks.com/" href="http://www.pgparks.com/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.pgparks.com</a></span></b><span style="color: blue; "><u></u><u></u></span></div></span></font></div><br></strong></font></font></div></span></font></span></font></strong></div><div dir="ltr" align="left"><strong><font face="Arial"><span class="234492712-28022012"><font color="#000000" size="3"><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "></span></font></span></font></strong> </div><div dir="ltr" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left" lang="en-us"><hr tabindex="-1"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Hempy-Mayer,Kara L (CONTR) - KEC-4<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, February 27, 2012 2:14 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>'<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>'<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration Collapse<br></font><br></div><div></div><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">Agreed. I’ve heard many people argue against the ideas of “ecosystem preservation” and “restoration,” but it’s usually a matter of semantics. What restoration and preservation are trying to accomplish is to maintain diversity on a global scale: there are ecosystems here that worked well before we starting impacting them so profoundly: we attempt to “restore” them by taking out what we put in (exotic weeds), or trying to repair what we damaged (soil structure, hydrology, etc.). Then, hopefully, the previous ecosystem processes can reestablish.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">As to the argument about increased carbon dioxide levels: I’ve always wondered about this. The argument that increased CO2 in the atmosphere has a profound effect on plant growth assumes that nothing else is limiting plant growth. From my limited background in plant physiology, there are usually many things limiting plant growth: macronutrients, micronutrients, water, and light. In balance, can CO2 have that big of an effect, even if it is limiting? Are there field studies that have found evidence for this?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">Thank you for the opportunity to comment -Kara<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-top-width: 1pt; border-right-width: medium; border-bottom-width: medium; border-left-width: medium; border-top-style: solid; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>William Stringer<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, February 27, 2012 8:41 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Robert Layton Beyfuss; Katie Fite; Wayne Tyson<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration Collapse<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">As to ecosystem restoration , we are not proposing to make a man-made Hope Diamond here. We are proposing to work from our admittedly limited knowledge base of what should be there, and what should not. We take out, to the degree that we can, the should-nots, particularly the known exotic invasive should-nots. We then try to place into the site local-source propagules of known natives in a patchwork of mixtures of relatively compatible species. At that point we have probably done most of what we can contribute. We can manage the site to the degree that we can simulate natural disturbance phenomena. But mostly at this point we stay out of the way and let natural phenomena drive the restoration. The only exception would be if outbreaks of exotic invasive species begin to threaten. Then, we monitor and learn</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">What we cannot do is let micro-analysis of the term restoration immobilize us into total inaction.</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; ">Bill Stringer</span><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; text-align: center; "><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; "><hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>] On Behalf Of Robert Layton Beyfuss [<a href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">rlb14@cornell.edu</a>]<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, February 27, 2012 10:26 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Katie Fite; Wayne Tyson<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration Collapse<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt; ">I do not understand how ecosystems can be restored since I consider them as dynamic and constantly changing. It is not possible to completely re-create the environmental conditions that led to a given ecosystem at any given time in the past. If ecosystems represent the interactions of living and environmental factors, to restore an ecosystem requires replicating the previous environmental factors that affect the living organisms. The level of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere has doubled in the past 80 years. Plant growth, reproduction and survival is profoundly affected by carbon dioxide levels. I consider attempts to restore ecosystems as no more than human’s creating new ecosystems using species of plants that previously occurred because humans liked the previous once more than the current one. </span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="border-top-width: 1pt; border-right-width: medium; border-bottom-width: medium; border-left-width: medium; border-top-style: solid; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><b><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: black; font-size: 10pt; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Katie Fite<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, February 27, 2012 9:12 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wayne Tyson<br><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration Collapse</span><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="color: black; "> <o:p></o:p></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; margin-left: 0in; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; "><span style="color: black; ">Wayne,<br><br>I am interested in the discussion.<br><br>And discussions of what ecological restoration is, and also discussions of how the term "restoration" is currently being used by agencies or at times industry - to describe imposing major disturbances on mature or old growth woody vegetation communities - with such disturbances often then leading to weed invasions.<br><br>Katie Fite<o:p></o:p></span></p><span style="color: black; "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></zzzbody></xml></ZZZ!--[IF></ZZZ![ENDIF]--></ZZZ!--[IF></ZZZ![ENDIF]--></ZZZ!--[IF></ZZZMETA></ZZZMETA></ZZZHEAD></ZZZHTML></KLHEMPYMAYER@BPA.GOV></IALM@EROLS.COM></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><FONT size=4>
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