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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>Y'all:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>The excellent contributions to this subject
continue to come in--and to think some had lost faith in this listerv and
skedaddled. (At least some told me off-list that they were so disappointed with
the quality of the discourse that they were leaving.) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>This is a good time to thank Olivia for maintaining
this list. THANKS, Olivia! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>Ryan makes good points; I'll respond within his
text below [[thus WT]]. I hope we continue to get further inputs like this.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>But here are some overall observations for what
they might be worth . . .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>1. "Ecosystems" that are referred to as such in the
plural are really convenient subdivisions of living organisms that we believe to
be distinguishable from other "ecosystems." There always is a certain amount of
overlap, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. The real phenomena don't "care"
one whit how we define or divide them, we do. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>2. "Invasions" are just how ecosystems work.
Disturbances, and the colonization of changed places by organisms different from
the ones which previously occupied the space of interest are just the way the
world works. Mine tailings and landslides, even volcanoes, have something in
common--they radically change the ecosystems that existed before the
disturbance. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>The early colonists, or "pioneer species," are
organisms whose requirements are met by the changed environment and which have a
means of dispersing into the new niches/environments. Those species whose needs
are not met by the changed environments/habitats tend not to succeed, but if
their propagules continue to "try," there may come a time when, after further
changes, that they, too, may establish successful individuals or colonies, and
so on. This has been called "succession," but I'm not fond of the term, because
I believe that there is no convincing evidence that organisms "succeed" each
other. In my view, all is adaptation to change, and change is in the
details--some of which we may know, some which we don't know. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>The "invasions" which concern "invasion
ecologists/biologists" tend to be undesirable for some reason(s), and sometimes
it's just because the organism is new to the neighborhood, as it were, an
"alien." But the underlying processes are essentially the same. Invasions of
"intact" ecosystems are often the result of culture in action, humans acting as
propagule vectors and cultivators of conditions favorable to the "undesirables."
We (myself included) tend to favor indigenous wildflowers, for example, over the
stickery annual grasses that have replaced them and persist to the detriment of
the previous occupants--and even systems far away, by altering things like
hydrology and fire. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>In "undisturbed" ecosystems, say, following a
tree-fall, "pioneer" species (some indigenous, some "alien") typically move
in to colonize the changed environment/habitat. Plants that do this are often
those that have evolved to occupy such sites and will, in time, fade away,
or undergo population decline and reduction in fecundity. This phenomenon can be
interpreted as "resistance to invasion," and is commonly one of the goals
of most restoration projects. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4>This condition is one desired by invasion
biologists, but for some reason not all IB's use this phenomenon to their
advantage. For some reason, some IB's believe that simply killing the
undesirables is their only option. One problem with not letting succession play
out is that the conditions produced by whacking and digging and spraying and
such is that the changes that the succession process produces don't happen at
all or are greatly reduced, prolonging a return to "normal." Sometimes it
makes things worse for indigenous species and better for the alien colonists.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=the.tsuga@gmail.com href="mailto:the.tsuga@gmail.com">Ryan McEwan</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jmbarr@academicplanet.com
href="mailto:jmbarr@academicplanet.com">John</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 02, 2012 6:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] Do ecosystems resist
invasion?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Hi John,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think this notion is derived from the fact that many invasive species
do well following disturbance. Many invasive plants, for example, have
population biology traits that help them arrive on disturbed sites (e.g., long
distance dispersal) and proliferate in the presence of the abundant resources
[[Since "intact" ecosystems tend to sequester almost all of the available
nutrients, the resulting paucity of available nutrients may be one factor in
producing resistance to invasion; on the other hand, the death of plants,
including weeds, tends to release sequestered nutrients, thus helping the
invasive aliens to succeed, reproduce, and disperse. WT]] that are
available in such locations. There is also the notion of the "empty
niche" in invasion ecology which suggests that species do well when they
invade habitats where there is "niche space" available due to the absence of a
native species. Of course, that native species might have been made
absent by some process that leaves the system less than "intact." [[My own
definition of "niche" is a bit different from that, perhaps classical
definition. I don't see niches so much as places as I do conditions favorable
to organisms. If others differ, I would like to hear more about the reasons
for other definitions. I do, however, believe that it's appropriate to speak
of niches as places where conditions favorable to organisms exist, and that
certainly can be valid for places like tree-fall areas being opened up niches
for colonizing species, alien or indigenous. Such places are self-evident when
one finds weeds where windfalls throw up a pile of subsoil. Clearly, such
conditions are suitable for the weeds released N, broken mycorrhizal mat, more
light, etc. WT]]</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What this generally means is that if you were to compare a large
landscape, you would very likely find that disturbed sites have many more
invasive species that areas that have been carefully preserved. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sadly, this is NOT an indication that the "intact" preserves are
"invasion-proof." In fact, what I think we are finding is simply that
the rate of spread into more intact systems is slower than for disturbed
sites. [[Here we need some detail. What, for example, is slowing the spread in
the "intact" ecosystems of the preserve. WT]] Slower rate, but the
invasives are still penetrating, inexorably in many cases. [[Yes, I have seen
such phenomena, but the mechanisms involved, hence the right kind of
management, don't seem to exist. I suggest that under such conditions we might
guess wrong, whereas with better information, we could avoid doing wrong.
Again, details. WT]]</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The other issue here is the whole idea of an "intact" ecosystem doesn't
really hold up under scrutiny. [[As discussed earlier, it's not yes or no,
it's the DEGREE of "intactness." WT]] The fact is that all
ecosystems experience "disturbances." Old-growth forests, for instance,
have tree-fall gaps that are a crucial part of the ecology of those
systems. These gaps can be invaded. Does a tree-fall gap make the
system less "intact" especially if that is a crucial, indeed,
descriptive piece of the systems ecology? [[It may indeed be descriptive, but
it remains an observation, not an explanation of the mechanisms. WT]] I
think not. Same could be argued for a riparian systems and
flooding. Surely flooding is part of the system's basic biology- can we
say it is less "intact" then when a flood occurs? There are a
spectrum of potential disturbance processes that influence any
ecosystem. So the idea of "intact" is relative. [[Agreed. In
fact, many weeds evolved under the disturbance regime of floods. But look at
relatively undisturbed riparian areas--how is it that they are still as
"intact" or functional as they may have been prior to the invasion of
Europeans in the 15th century? WT]]</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>My two cents: sites that are massively disturbed are very likely to
be invaded by species with a "weedy" population biology, and in many cases the
best members of that flora/fauna are invasives. Sites that are less
disturbed, are likely more "resistant" but invasives certainly can, and do,
penetrate those systems. [[I understand the logic and the "evidence." But I
think we need to know more about the mechanisms. Further, I think ecologists
are kidding themselves about the adequacy of observations that are limited to
the external phenomena and may be a bit hasty about drawing final conclusions
about cause and effect. That is, they need to get more "scientific" as well as
observational. Spoken as a compulsive observer who has himself so sinned.
WT]]</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ryan </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> -- <BR>Ryan W. McEwan, PhD<BR>Assistant
Professor<BR>Department of Biology<BR>The University of Dayton<BR>300 College
Park, Dayton, OH 45469-2320</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Email: <A
href="mailto:ryan.mcewan@udayton.edu">ryan.mcewan@udayton.edu</A><BR>Lab:
<A
href="http://academic.udayton.edu/ryanmcewan">http://academic.udayton.edu/ryanmcewan</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:02 AM, John <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:jmbarr@academicplanet.com">jmbarr@academicplanet.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">With all due respect, and not to be a
bother, but ...... I'd like to question the notion that intact ecosystems
resist invasion, but I do not know who proposed it nor what evidence they
have for it. None the less I hear it bandied about again and again.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Questions:</DIV>
<DIV>1) How does any species ever colonize an island? Aren't the
island's ecosystems as "intact" as any other?</DIV>
<DIV>2) Fire ants like many invasives arrived in North American (and around
the globe) without their natural adversaries. How can a native
fire ant "resist" invasion when they have long developed adversaries and the
invasive species has none? This same pattern is repeated again and
again with species after species, else why would "biocontrols" be effective
or even considered?</DIV>
<DIV>3) I fear a circular argument, invasion occurred, hence the ecosystem
was not intact. Is there any ecosystem that is intact? Really,
with very few exceptions, if you name an ecosystem, I bet I can find: A) a
prior human impact on that ecosystem and B) a species that will successfully
invade.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Enlighten me, please......is there scientific evidence for this
notion?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>john in Austin</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>On Mar 1, 2012, at 2:49 PM, Ty Harrison wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><SPAN
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"
bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT size=+0>APWG: I like Tyson's metaphor (sexist?):
Whizzing up wind is what many of use are doing rather than using locally
relevant ecological models as he recommends. Or as others ecologists
have said: weeds and other invaders occupy "emtpy niches in the old
corral". But this only goes so far. Many weeds can insinuate
themselves into these "empty niches" in disturbance prone
(drought?) ecosystems which we have out west (eg. Cheatgrass,
Cranesbill, Star Thistle, Dalmatian Toadflax etc. etc. etc.). Ty
Harrison</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228)"><B>From:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
title=landrest@cox.net style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net" target=_blank>Wayne Tyson</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
title=schenkmj@earthlink.net
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:schenkmj@earthlink.net" target=_blank>Michael
Schenk</A><SPAN> </SPAN>;<SPAN> </SPAN><A title=ialm@erols.com
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target=_blank>Marc Imlay</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Wednesday,
February 29, 2012 4:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>[APWG]
Invasion and cropping Re: rate of change</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Y'all:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>When you change something in an ecosystem, other
things change, including "invasions" (aka colonization). Ecosystems tend
toward sequestering most or effectively all of the nutrients in the
biomass--or try to. Much of colonization consists of a drive in that
direction. This is why some ecologists have said that an ecosystem in
equilibrium resists invasion. This is a sustained/sustainable situation,
but that is far different from the invented and spun context in which
"sustainable" is bandied about today.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To cut to the chase, modern agronomic practice is 180
degrees out of phase with this principle, hence with ecosystems. Study
sites where the best ginseng grows, and study them completely. Then
compare those conditions with the ones in which you are attempting to
grow it as a crop. If there is any significant difference, it is likely
that you are whizzing upwind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This is already indulging in more conjecture than
justified by the scant information about the ecological context of your
project, so take it with a grain of salt and see if any of the
principles mentioned help. I hope so.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>WT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4>----- Original Message
-----</FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228)"><FONT
size=4><B>From:</B><SPAN> </SPAN></FONT><A
title=schenkmj@earthlink.net
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:schenkmj@earthlink.net" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>Michael Schenk</FONT></A><FONT size=4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT
size=4><B>To:</B><SPAN> </SPAN></FONT><A title=ialm@erols.com
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target=_blank><FONT size=4>Marc
Imlay</FONT></A><FONT size=4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT
size=4><B>Cc:</B><SPAN> </SPAN></FONT><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><FONT
size=4>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT
size=4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT
size=4><B>Sent:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:21
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT
size=4><B>Subject:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>[APWG] rate of
change</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid"><FONT
size=4>Bingo! It's the rate of change that counts. When a new
species arrives every thousand years, a time scale roughly
consistent with "natural" climate change disturbances, the ecosystem
has a chance to respond and integrate the new species.<BR><BR>If you
keep on rocking the boat and never give it a chance to steady out,
somebody's gonna get wet. Sometimes I feel like we're arguing over
angel dancing space. The fact is, the boat is swamping, and we need
to slow down the rate of change.<BR><BR>I'm a small landholder,
trying to plant sustainable harvests of ginseng, etc., in the face
of encroachment from garlic mustard, stiltgrass, tearthumb. I don't
have the time or resources for massive intervention. I need
affordable, time-efficient methods of non-toxic removal. I've
already spent hundreds of hours and many dollars on weedwhackers and
native seed. For me, the combination of mechanical removal and
planting native grasses is at least holding the stiltgrass steady.
I'd like to learn about other successful practices that fit with a
modest budget and a working
schedule.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Mike<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<SPAN> </SPAN><BR>From: Marc
Imlay<SPAN> </SPAN><U></U><BR>Sent: Feb 28, 2012 7:35
AM<SPAN> </SPAN><BR>To: "'Hempy-Mayer,Kara L (CONTR) -
KEC-4'"<SPAN> </SPAN><U></U>,<SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><SPAN> </SPAN><BR>Cc:<SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><SPAN> </SPAN><BR>Subject:
Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration
Collapse<SPAN> </SPAN><BR><BR><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><STRONG><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><FONT
color=#000000 size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">Just
to clarify, ecosystems are dynamic and constantly changing, but
not at the present rate of change. When endangered species were
protected with national and international laws and programs several
decades ago, we agreed that species naturally become
extinct over time. It is just the rate of extintion that had
increased a thousand fold and needed to be reversed so new species
had an ecosystem to evolve
in.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><STRONG><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><FONT
color=#000000 size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><STRONG><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><FONT
color=#000000 size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=3><STRONG>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif">Marc Imlay,
PhD,</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif">Conservation
biologist, Park Ranger Office</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif"><A
href="tel:%28301%29%20442-5657" target=_blank
value="+13014425657">(301) 442-5657</A> cell</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif"> <A
title=blocked::mailto:ialm@erols.com
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com"
target=_blank>ialm@erols.com</A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif">Natural and
Historical Resources Division</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif">The Maryland-National Capital Park and
Planning Commission</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif"><A
title=blocked::http://www.pgparks.com/
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="http://www.pgparks.com/"
target=_blank>www.pgparks.com</A></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR></STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><STRONG><FONT face=Arial><SPAN><FONT
color=#000000 size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A><SPAN> </SPAN>[<A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>]<SPAN> </SPAN><B>On
Behalf Of<SPAN> </SPAN></B>Hempy-Mayer,Kara L (CONTR) -
KEC-4<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Monday, February 27, 2012
2:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>'<BR><B>Cc:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>'<BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Re:
[APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration Collapse<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">Agreed.
I’ve heard many people argue against the ideas of “ecosystem
preservation” and “restoration,” but it’s usually a matter of
semantics. What restoration and preservation are trying to
accomplish is to maintain diversity on a global scale: there are
ecosystems here that worked well before we starting impacting them
so profoundly: we attempt to “restore” them by taking out what we
put in (exotic weeds), or trying to repair what we damaged (soil
structure, hydrology, etc.). Then, hopefully, the previous
ecosystem processes can reestablish.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">As
to the argument about increased carbon dioxide levels: I’ve always
wondered about this. The argument that increased CO2 in the
atmosphere has a profound effect on plant growth assumes that
nothing else is limiting plant growth. From my limited background in
plant physiology, there are usually many things limiting plant
growth: macronutrients, micronutrients, water, and light. In
balance, can CO2 have that big of an effect, even if it is limiting?
Are there field studies that have found evidence for
this?<U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">Thank
you for the opportunity to comment -Kara<U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif"><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A><SPAN> </SPAN>[<A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>]<SPAN> </SPAN><B>On
Behalf Of<SPAN> </SPAN></B>William
Stringer<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Monday, February 27, 2012
8:41 AM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Robert Layton Beyfuss; Katie
Fite; Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>;<SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Re:
[APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration
Collapse<U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><U></U><U></U> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif">As to ecosystem
restoration , we are not proposing to make a man-made Hope Diamond
here. We are proposing to work from our admittedly limited
knowledge base of what should be there, and what should not.
We take out, to the degree that we can, the should-nots,
particularly the known exotic invasive should-nots. We then
try to place into the site local-source propagules of known natives
in a patchwork of mixtures of relatively compatible species.
At that point we have probably done most of what we can
contribute. We can manage the site to the degree that we can
simulate natural disturbance phenomena. But mostly at this
point we stay out of the way and let natural phenomena drive the
restoration. The only exception would be if outbreaks of
exotic invasive species begin to threaten. Then, we monitor
and learn</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif">What we cannot do is let
micro-analysis of the term restoration immobilize us into total
inaction.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif">Bill Stringer</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif; TEXT-ALIGN: center"
align=center><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif"><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A><SPAN> </SPAN>[<A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] On
Behalf Of Robert Layton Beyfuss [<A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu"
target=_blank>rlb14@cornell.edu</A>]<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Monday,
February 27, 2012 10:26 AM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Katie
Fite; Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>;<SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Re:
[APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration
Collapse<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri,sans-serif">I
do not understand how ecosystems can be restored since I consider
them as dynamic and constantly changing. It is not possible to
completely re-create the environmental conditions that led to a
given ecosystem at any given time in the past. If ecosystems
represent the interactions of living and environmental factors, to
restore an ecosystem requires replicating the previous environmental
factors that affect the living organisms. The level of carbon
dioxide in our atmosphere has doubled in the past 80 years. Plant
growth, reproduction and survival is profoundly affected by carbon
dioxide levels. I consider attempts to restore ecosystems as
no more than human’s creating new ecosystems using species of
plants that previously occurred because humans liked the previous
once more than the current one.
</SPAN><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma,sans-serif"><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A><SPAN> </SPAN>[<A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>]<SPAN> </SPAN><B>On
Behalf Of<SPAN> </SPAN></B>Katie
Fite<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Monday, February 27, 2012
9:12 AM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Wayne
Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B><SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>;<SPAN> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline"
href="mailto:rwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>rwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN> </SPAN>Re:
[APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration
Collapse</SPAN><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman',serif"><SPAN>Wayne,<BR><BR>I
am interested in the discussion.<BR><BR>And discussions of what
ecological restoration is, and also discussions of how the term
"restoration" is currently being used by agencies or at times
industry - to describe imposing major disturbances on
mature or old growth woody vegetation communities - with such
disturbances often then leading to weed invasions.<BR><BR>Katie
Fite<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P><SPAN><U></U><U></U></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U><U></U></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><FONT size=4>
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