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<DIV><FONT size=2>APWG: I like Tyson's metaphor (sexist?): Whizzing
up wind is what many of use are doing rather than using locally relevant
ecological models as he recommends. Or as others ecologists have
said: weeds and other invaders occupy "emtpy niches in the old
corral". But this only goes so far. Many weeds can insinuate
themselves into these "empty niches" in disturbance prone
(drought?) ecosystems which we have out west (eg. Cheatgrass, Cranesbill,
Star Thistle, Dalmatian Toadflax etc. etc. etc.). Ty Harrison</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=landrest@cox.net href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">Wayne Tyson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=schenkmj@earthlink.net
href="mailto:schenkmj@earthlink.net">Michael Schenk</A> ; <A
title=ialm@erols.com href="mailto:ialm@erols.com">Marc Imlay</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 29, 2012 4:41
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [APWG] Invasion and cropping Re:
rate of change</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Y'all:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>When you change something in an ecosystem, other things
change, including "invasions" (aka colonization). Ecosystems tend toward
sequestering most or effectively all of the nutrients in the biomass--or try
to. Much of colonization consists of a drive in that direction. This is why
some ecologists have said that an ecosystem in equilibrium resists invasion.
This is a sustained/sustainable situation, but that is far different from the
invented and spun context in which "sustainable" is bandied about today.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To cut to the chase, modern agronomic practice is 180
degrees out of phase with this principle, hence with ecosystems. Study sites
where the best ginseng grows, and study them completely. Then compare those
conditions with the ones in which you are attempting to grow it as a crop. If
there is any significant difference, it is likely that you are whizzing
upwind. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>This is already indulging in more conjecture than justified
by the scant information about the ecological context of your project, so take
it with a grain of salt and see if any of the principles mentioned help. I
hope so. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>WT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4>----- Original Message -----
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><FONT
size=4><B>From:</B> </FONT><A title=schenkmj@earthlink.net
href="mailto:schenkmj@earthlink.net"><FONT size=4>Michael
Schenk</FONT></A><FONT size=4> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>To:</B> </FONT><A
title=ialm@erols.com href="mailto:ialm@erols.com"><FONT size=4>Marc
Imlay</FONT></A><FONT size=4> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Cc:</B> </FONT><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT
size=4>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT size=4>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February
28, 2012 4:21 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT size=4><B>Subject:</B> [APWG] rate of
change</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,255) 2px solid"><FONT
size=4>Bingo! It's the rate of change that counts. When a new species
arrives every thousand years, a time scale roughly consistent with
"natural" climate change disturbances, the ecosystem has a chance to
respond and integrate the new species.<BR><BR>If you keep on rocking the
boat and never give it a chance to steady out, somebody's gonna get wet.
Sometimes I feel like we're arguing over angel dancing space. The fact is,
the boat is swamping, and we need to slow down the rate of
change.<BR><BR>I'm a small landholder, trying to plant sustainable
harvests of ginseng, etc., in the face of encroachment from garlic
mustard, stiltgrass, tearthumb. I don't have the time or resources for
massive intervention. I need affordable, time-efficient methods of
non-toxic removal. I've already spent hundreds of hours and many
dollars on weedwhackers and native seed. For me, the combination of
mechanical removal and planting native grasses is at least holding the
stiltgrass steady. I'd like to learn about other successful practices that
fit with a modest budget and a working schedule.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Mike
<BR><BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: Marc Imlay
<IALM@EROLS.COM><BR>Sent: Feb 28, 2012 7:35 AM <BR>To: "'Hempy-Mayer,Kara
L (CONTR) - KEC-4'" <KLHEMPYMAYER@BPA.GOV>,
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org <BR>Cc: rwg@lists.plantconservation.org
<BR>Subject: Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem Restoration Collapse
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<div dir="ltr" align="left"><strong><font face="Arial"><span class="234492712-28022012"><font color="#000000" size="3"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Just
to clarify, ecosystems are dynamic and constantly changing, but not at the
present rate of change. When endangered species were protected with national and
international laws and programs several decades ago, we agreed that species
naturally become extinct over time. It is just the rate of extintion that
had increased a thousand fold and needed to be reversed so new species had an
ecosystem to evolve in. </span></font></span></font></strong></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><strong><font face="Arial"><span class="234492712-28022012"><font color="#000000" size="3"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"></span></font></span></font></strong> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><strong><font face="Arial"><span class="234492712-28022012"><font color="#000000" size="3"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">
<div><font size="2"><font face="Arial" size="3"><strong>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"><span class="578543911-24022012">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: navy;">Marc Imlay,
PhD,</span></b><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: blue;">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: navy;">Conservation biologist,
Park Ranger Office</span></b><span style="color: blue;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: navy;">(301) 442-5657
cell</span></b><span style="color: blue;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: green;"> <a title="blocked::mailto:ialm@erols.com" href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target="_blank">ialm@erols.com</a></span></b><span style="color: blue;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: navy;">Natural and Historical
Resources Division</span></b><span style="color: blue;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: navy;">The Maryland-National Capital Park and
Planning Commission</span></b><span style="color: blue;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: green;"><a title="blocked::http://www.pgparks.com/" href="http://www.pgparks.com/" target="_blank">www.pgparks.com</a></span></b><span style="color: blue;"><u></u><u></u></span></p></span></font></div><br></strong></font></font></div></span></font></span></font></strong></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><strong><font face="Arial"><span class="234492712-28022012"><font color="#000000" size="3"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"></span></font></span></font></strong> </div>
<div dir="ltr" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left" lang="en-us">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Hempy-Mayer,Kara L (CONTR) - KEC-4<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 27, 2012
2:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org'<br><b>Cc:</b>
'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse<br></font><br></div>
<div></div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Agreed.
I’ve heard many people argue against the ideas of “ecosystem preservation” and
“restoration,” but it’s usually a matter of semantics. What restoration
and preservation are trying to accomplish is to maintain diversity on a global
scale: there are ecosystems here that worked well before we starting impacting
them so profoundly: we attempt to “restore” them by taking out what we put in
(exotic weeds), or trying to repair what we damaged (soil structure, hydrology,
etc.). Then, hopefully, the previous ecosystem processes can
reestablish.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">As
to the argument about increased carbon dioxide levels: I’ve always wondered
about this. The argument that increased CO2 in the atmosphere has a
profound effect on plant growth assumes that nothing else is limiting plant
growth. From my limited background in plant physiology, there are usually many
things limiting plant growth: macronutrients, micronutrients, water, and light.
In balance, can CO2 have that big of an effect, even if it is limiting?
Are there field studies that have found evidence for this?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">Thank
you for the opportunity to comment -Kara<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; font-size: 10pt;">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>William
Stringer<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 27, 2012 8:41 AM<br><b>To:</b> Robert
Layton Beyfuss; Katie Fite; Wayne Tyson<br><b>Cc:</b>
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
rwg@lists.plantconservation.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black;">As to ecosystem
restoration , we are not proposing to make a man-made Hope Diamond here.
We are proposing to work from our admittedly limited knowledge base of what
should be there, and what should not. We take out, to the degree that we
can, the should-nots, particularly the known exotic invasive should-nots.
We then try to place into the site local-source propagules of known natives in a
patchwork of mixtures of relatively compatible species. At that point we
have probably done most of what we can contribute. We can manage the site
to the degree that we can simulate natural disturbance phenomena. But
mostly at this point we stay out of the way and let natural phenomena drive the
restoration. The only exception would be if outbreaks of exotic invasive
species begin to threaten. Then, we monitor and learn</span><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black;">What we cannot do is
let micro-analysis of the term restoration immobilize us into total
inaction.</span><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black;">Bill
Stringer</span><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<div style="text-align: center;" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black;">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div></div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Robert Layton Beyfuss
[rlb14@cornell.edu]<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 27, 2012 10:26
AM<br><b>To:</b> Katie Fite; Wayne Tyson<br><b>Cc:</b>
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
rwg@lists.plantconservation.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse<o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-size: 11pt;">I
do not understand how ecosystems can be restored since I consider them as
dynamic and constantly changing. It is not possible to completely re-create the
environmental conditions that led to a given ecosystem at any given time in the
past. If ecosystems represent the interactions of living and environmental
factors, to restore an ecosystem requires replicating the previous environmental
factors that affect the living organisms. The level of carbon dioxide in our
atmosphere has doubled in the past 80 years. Plant growth, reproduction and
survival is profoundly affected by carbon dioxide levels. I consider attempts to
restore ecosystems as no more than human’s creating new ecosystems
using species of plants that previously occurred because humans liked the
previous once more than the current one. </span><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt;">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Katie
Fite<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 27, 2012 9:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> Wayne
Tyson<br><b>Cc:</b> apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
rwg@lists.plantconservation.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse</span><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;" class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: black;">Wayne,<br><br>I am interested in the discussion.<br><br>And
discussions of what ecological restoration is, and also discussions of how the
term "restoration" is currently being used by agencies or at times
industry - to describe imposing major disturbances on mature or old
growth woody vegetation communities - with such disturbances often then
leading to weed invasions.<br><br>Katie Fite<o:p></o:p></span></p><span style="color: black;"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></zzzbody></xml></ZZZ!--[IF></ZZZ![ENDIF]--></ZZZ!--[IF></ZZZ![ENDIF]--></ZZZ!--[IF></ZZZMETA></ZZZMETA></ZZZHEAD></ZZZHTML></KLHEMPYMAYER@BPA.GOV></IALM@EROLS.COM></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><FONT size=4>
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