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<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=klhempymayer@bpa.gov
href="mailto:klhempymayer@bpa.gov">Hempy-Mayer,Kara L (CONTR) - KEC-4</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org'">'apwg@lists.plantconservation.org'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=rwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org'">'rwg@lists.plantconservation.org'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2012 11:14
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Agreed.
I’ve heard many people argue against the ideas of “ecosystem preservation” and
“restoration,” but it’s usually a matter of semantics. What restoration
and preservation are trying to accomplish is to maintain diversity on a global
scale: there are ecosystems here that worked well before we starting impacting
them so profoundly: we attempt to “restore” them by taking out what we put in
(exotic weeds), or trying to repair what we damaged (soil structure,
hydrology, etc.). Then, hopefully, the previous ecosystem processes can
reestablish.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">As
to the argument about increased carbon dioxide levels: I’ve always wondered
about this. The argument that increased CO2 in the atmosphere has a
profound effect on plant growth assumes that nothing else is limiting plant
growth. From my limited background in plant physiology, there are usually many
things limiting plant growth: macronutrients, micronutrients, water, and
light. In balance, can CO2 have that big of an effect, even if it is
limiting? Are there field studies that have found evidence for
this?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Thank
you for the opportunity to comment -Kara<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>William
Stringer<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2012 8:41 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Robert Layton Beyfuss; Katie Fite; Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B>
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
rwg@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">As to ecosystem
restoration , we are not proposing to make a man-made Hope Diamond here.
We are proposing to work from our admittedly limited knowledge base of what
should be there, and what should not. We take out, to the degree that we
can, the should-nots, particularly the known exotic invasive
should-nots. We then try to place into the site local-source propagules
of known natives in a patchwork of mixtures of relatively compatible
species. At that point we have probably done most of what we can
contribute. We can manage the site to the degree that we can simulate
natural disturbance phenomena. But mostly at this point we stay out of
the way and let natural phenomena drive the restoration. The only
exception would be if outbreaks of exotic invasive species begin to
threaten. Then, we monitor and learn</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">What we cannot do is
let micro-analysis of the term restoration immobilize us into total
inaction.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Bill
Stringer</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Robert Layton Beyfuss
[rlb14@cornell.edu]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2012 10:26
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Katie Fite; Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B>
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
rwg@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
do not understand how ecosystems can be restored since I consider them as
dynamic and constantly changing. It is not possible to completely re-create
the environmental conditions that led to a given ecosystem at any given time
in the past. If ecosystems represent the interactions of living and
environmental factors, to restore an ecosystem requires replicating the
previous environmental factors that affect the living organisms. The level of
carbon dioxide in our atmosphere has doubled in the past 80 years. Plant
growth, reproduction and survival is profoundly affected by carbon dioxide
levels. I consider attempts to restore ecosystems as no more than
human’s creating new ecosystems using species of plants that previously
occurred because humans liked the previous once more than the current one.
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Katie
Fite<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2012 9:12 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Wayne
Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B> apwg@lists.plantconservation.org;
rwg@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] [RWG] Ecosystem
Restoration Collapse</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Wayne,<BR><BR>I am interested in the
discussion.<BR><BR>And discussions of what ecological restoration is, and also
discussions of how the term "restoration" is currently being used by agencies
or at times industry - to describe imposing major disturbances on
mature or old growth woody vegetation communities - with such
disturbances often then leading to weed invasions.<BR><BR>Katie
Fite<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 8:33 PM,
Wayne Tyson <<A href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">landrest@cox.net</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">All:</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">One of my fellow
subscribers has been corresponding with me off-list the subject of ecosystem
restoration standards, and I have been unsuccessful in persuading the
subscriber to keep the discussion on-list, as I believe the subject is of
broad common interest. This person apparently believes that I am the only one
(with one or two others) interested, because no one else has weighed in on the
subject. Is this person right? Are none but three or four of us interested in
this topic? Should this and related topics be kept off list (to keep topics of
restricted interest from clogging the in-baskets of the majority? If so, how
many subscribers are there to APWG and RWG? </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I am hereby taking the
liberty to broach the most recent topic, the collapse of ecosystem restoration
projects, signified by the return of weed dominance in some cases. I would add
to this that ecosystem restoration projects also "collapse" or fail to "take"
whether or not weeds dominate. The off-list poster confined the comments to
grasslands, so I will primarily address that issue, but the same principles
hold true for other biomes and can be more broadly applied. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">First, the "return" of
grassland restoration projects to weed-dominance.</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">There are a number of
reasons for this, some related to context issues like soil type, some
related to restoration methods, but consideration of soil type must be
part of the restoration assessment, planning, and execution process. Soil type
is important; in the case of grassland restoration, it is preferable (actually
essential) that a grassland soil is present--if it isn't, all the King of
Restoration's horses and all the KoR's men and women will not be able to make
a silk purse out of a sow's ear (without some major alterations to the soil).
I invite others to expand and expound on this subject; I will mention only
some factors. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">True grassland soils
tend to have identifiable characteristics. They tend to develop on alluvial or
aeolian soils of finer texture and containing considerable natural humus and
soil flora/fauna, as well as mineral deposits at depth (commonly at or near
the effective bottom of the root zone) such as calcium and sodium.
Disturbance of such soils can render the site largely incapable of supporting
a true grassland, such as when bulldozed or otherwise excavated and the
surface is changed from a grassland-type soil to a jumbled mass,
sometimes consisting of coarse B-horizon or deeper deposits unsuited to
grassland development. This should be determined in the initial assessment and
feasibility investigation, and consideration should be given to restoring an
ecosystem/plant community type other than grasslands, at least as a
transitional measure until something resembling a grassland soil can be
developed. (Wholesale replacement of the degraded soil with grassland soil can
be done, but it is terribly expensive.) </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">If one tries to
establish a grassland on non-grassland soils, one is most likely going to be
disappointed, and "failure" is almost foreordained. I have, however, attempted
to grow hair on such billiard-ball sites, with limited success. If other
conditions are favorable, a soil can sometimes be developed (or its
development accelerated) by certain tricks (e.g., praying for gopher or
prairie-dog invasions, adding mycorrhizal fungi and other essential soil
organisms, and transitional plantings of annual plants--sometimes even
grasses, but more commonly dicots like weeds and flowers that will be
humus-builders. Short-lived perennial plants, even some shrubs, also can be
used. This approach is much cheaper than soil importation, and sometimes can
be better. The actual strategy should fit the context. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I should make it clear
that my first fifteen years of attempting ecosystem restoration projects were
all failures by my own standards, and I have continued to make some mistakes
once ever since. One must, I believe, learn from actual experience. However,
just experience is no guarantee of expertise. If I had stubbornly held on to
what I "knew" and refused to consider that what I knew might be wrong, I would
have continued to fail. I did get to the point that could reliably initiate
ecosystem processes and avoid "collapse." All restoration practitioners
can do is to accelerate ecosystem development anyway, largely by setting up
conditions that will permit or even maybe encourage natural ecosystems
processes to work. We don't actually restore living systems. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">In short, most
failures can be traced back to the kind of work done and not done to set up
favorable conditions for natural forces to work upon. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">In short, two of my
biggest mistakes (there have been many others) have been to: </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">a. fail to properly
assess site conditions and develop a restoration program that modifies or
matches those conditions. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">b. plant too many
seeds and plants, spending far too much money and doing far too much
presumptuous guesswork. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">If a grassland soil is
present, indigenous species can persist and eventually re-assert dominance
over weed populations. If one can mimic grassland soils, one has a chance of
fostering the development of grassland, but one must out-draw the Lone Ranger
to do it. If one is presumptuous enough to believe that all that needs to be
done is to kill weeds and scatter seeds, collapse, unless one is terribly
lucky, is rather more likely than not. </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Disturbed sites (from
bulldozing to trampling) tend to favor weeds. They are the scabs, as it were,
on the scarred face of the earth--not pretty, but an inevitable result of land
mismanagement. </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">2. Collapse of
"restored" ecosystems that do not necessarily result in dominance of
weeds.</SPAN></B><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">This phenomenon is
often the result of simply seeding or planting too many and/or the wrong
balance of the right (and/or wrong) species at the wrong time, possibly
including "maintenance." </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">This can be the
subject of another discussion, but I have run out of time . . . (and since it
does not include weeds so much, it might be "inappropriate" for these lists.
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #888888; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">WT</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's
Restoration Working Group mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:RWG@lists.plantconservation.org">RWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/rwg_lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/rwg_lists.plantconservation.org</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's Alien
Plant Working Group mailing
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<P class=avgcert align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 10.0.1424 / Virus
Database: 2113/4835 - Release Date: 02/27/12</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>