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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=468283917-02082011><FONT color=#0000ff
face=Arial><STRONG>Our mission is normally not to kill them all. We do kill them
all in very limited small places such as Nature
Centers. </STRONG></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=468283917-02082011><STRONG><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial></FONT></STRONG></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=468283917-02082011><STRONG><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial>marc</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Wayne Tyson [mailto:landrest@cox.net]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 29, 2011 11:20 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Gena Fleming; Ty
Harrison<BR><B>Cc:</B> Robert Layton Beyfuss; Marc Imlay; Graziano, Gino A
(DNR); apwg@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG]
Terminology still unresolved? Re: Jewelweed<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Honorable Forum: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I don't know what the majority of the list thinks
(I'm under the impression that it's the property of Olivia Kwong), but I suspect
that there will be a name change to this list when and if the term "alien" is no
longer acceptable. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>My main question concerns function; how many APWG
subscribers believe that the solution to alien species is to kill them all?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>WT</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=genafleming@gmail.com href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">Gena
Fleming</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=tyju@xmission.com
href="mailto:tyju@xmission.com">Ty Harrison</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=rlb14@cornell.edu
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu">Robert Layton Beyfuss</A> ; <A
title=ialm@erols.com href="mailto:ialm@erols.com">Marc Imlay</A> ; <A
title=landrest@cox.net href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">Wayne Tyson</A> ; <A
title=gino.graziano@alaska.gov
href="mailto:gino.graziano@alaska.gov">Graziano, Gino A (DNR)</A> ; <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 29, 2011 4:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] Terminology still
unresolved? Re: Jewelweed</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dear All:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I like "Ecosystem Restoration" Group, terminology which has been used on
this list by others, or "habitat remediation" or anything
that keeps the focus on the whole picture instead of seeing "invasive plants"
as the cause of habitat destruction, when they are usually just a
symptom. Also, not all exotics are causing problems in the ecosystem,
and some are powerful bioremediators.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Similarly, the terminology used is just a symptom, not the cause of how
we are conceptualizing environmental changes. But discussing
the terminology, I agree, is probably key to concept shifting. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gena Fleming </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On 29 July 2011 18:01, Ty Harrison <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:tyju@xmission.com" target=_blank>tyju@xmission.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV lang=EN-US bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I like "Non-native Invasive Plant Working
Group". It'a mouthful but more descriptive. Ty
Harrison</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=rlb14@cornell.edu href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu"
target=_blank>Robert Layton Beyfuss</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ialm@erols.com
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target=_blank>Marc Imlay</A> ; <A
title=landrest@cox.net href="mailto:landrest@cox.net" target=_blank>'Wayne
Tyson'</A> ; <A title=gino.graziano@alaska.gov
href="mailto:gino.graziano@alaska.gov" target=_blank>'Graziano, Gino A
(DNR)'</A> ; <A title=genafleming@gmail.com
href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com" target=_blank>'Gena Fleming'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 29, 2011 7:39
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] Terminology still
unresolved? Re: Jewelweed</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Are we
not all posting on the “<B><I>alien</I></B> plant working group” list
serve? <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Is this
heresy?<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Bob<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Marc Imlay [mailto:<A
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com" target=_blank>ialm@erols.com</A>]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 29, 2011 9:30 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Wayne
Tyson'; Robert Layton Beyfuss; 'Graziano, Gino A (DNR)'; 'Gena
Fleming'<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
[APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">I use non-native
invasive. Marc</SPAN></STRONG><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:25
AM<BR><B>To:</B> Robert Layton Beyfuss; Graziano, Gino A (DNR); Gena
Fleming<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>Hi y'all,</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>I suspect that a lot of the "backlash" that
occurs is the result of excessive hyperbole and pure pig-headedness than
healthy intellectual intercourse. </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>"Alien" is a loaded word because of its semantic
alliances, different in every malignant prong of undisciplined linguistic
evolution; "lay" people are sometimes surprisingly ignorant of even
simpler distinctions (e.g. an educated project manager who thought that
chaparral was a single species), but they are not unintelligent, the
distinction simply had not yet proven necessary in her life. One wonders
how far off the beam the rest of the "rabble" is.
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>Thinking of others as rabble and giving up on
them is all too common among academics, even science-writers. Would
dropping the term "alien" from the scholarly literature and replacing it
with a less-loaded term advance or retard understanding?
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>WT</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>"'Tis friction's brisk, rough rub that provides
the vital spark!" --A. R. Martin</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN>----- Original Message ----- </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A title=rlb14@cornell.edu
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Robert Layton
Beyfuss</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A title=gino.graziano@alaska.gov
href="mailto:gino.graziano@alaska.gov" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Graziano, Gino A
(DNR)</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN> ; </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
title=genafleming@gmail.com href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com"
target=_blank><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Gena
Fleming</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN> ; </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A title=landrest@cox.net
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Wayne
Tyson</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN>Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN>
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Monday, July 25, 2011
2:31 PM</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN> RE: [APWG]
Terminology still unresolved? Re: Jewelweed</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Hi
All<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">As long
as the term “invasive” is restricted to place of origin as
in the Presidential E.O. definition </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">“an alien species* whose
introduction does or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm
or harm to human health.” </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #4f81bd; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">and requires an asterisk * to
further define that cryptic term, many people will equate exotic or
alien with invasive and will make stupid decisions based on that
misunderstanding. Here in NY state we have executive orders on
several levels of state government banning all “exotic” plants in
publicly funded projects, not invasive exotic plants, but ALL exotic
plants. Currently there is a grant i.e. a publicly funded project
underway in parts of NY City to remove all exotic species in a
particular area that includes parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan,
regardless of their reproductive status or whether or not they are weeds
and replace them with native plants. This is a serious and needless
waste of my tax dollars and an infringement on my rights as a citizen to
enjoy plants that cause no harm but are condemned because of their
country of origin. We have state funded swat teams travelling around NY
now spraying herbicide on Giant Hogweed at a cost of 1 million $ with
zero chance of eradicating it or even seriously slowing its spread. I
would much rather see the money spent on studies that are trying to
understand why these plants are spreading but the money is there to kill
and not to understand why. <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I think most people on
this list serve realize that the terms alien or exotic mean from a
different ecosystem than the one they are introduced into and not just a
different country but most laypeople will not. This is the fundamental
flaw of invasion biology as a science and what has provoked backlash, as
in the article in discussion. <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #4f81bd; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Bob</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #4f81bd"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>Graziano, Gino A (DNR)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 21, 2011
4:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Gena Fleming; Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Re: "I presume that
everyone has actually read the recent Davis, et al
paper?"</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I read the article, heard
him talk on Science Friday, and read the transcript of the
program. I found the article and interview to be timely, however
largely and disturbingly an incomplete account of how invasive species
managers are making decisions. First though, I will commend the
efforts of the authors because there are many individuals and land
managers that do not take the time to critically evaluate the best
available information and manage “invasive” species based on nativity
instead of real threat to resources. I also agree that a lot of
the language used to describe invasive species lends to public and land
manager bias to non-native species in general. Both of these
issues are real and are counterproductive to natural resource
management.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>As a state coordinator of invasive species management
in Alaska, I regularly discuss the need to focus on those few species
that are really problematic and not just any species based on nativity
alone. The concept of only a few problematic species is not new and was
brought up by Williams in his 1996 book “Biological Invasions” where he
presented the “Tens rule” (you all know that though). Focus on
true problems, is increasingly becoming the norm as many regions of the
world are developing invasiveness ranking systems that seek to clarify
which species are ecosystem changers and which are simply persistent in
habitats that we (humans) develop (e.g. roadsides, gravel pits, air
strips etc.). The ranking system Alaska uses is found at <A
href="http://aknhp.uaa.alaska.edu/botany/akepic/non-native-plant-species-biographies/"
target=_blank>http://aknhp.uaa.alaska.edu/botany/akepic/non-native-plant-species-biographies/</A>.
No ranking alone is the guiding decision tool and the authors of
Alaska’s acknowledge that management/regulatory action still requires
more insight into economic, social and environmental interactions a
species has in an area.<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>So, I ask why are ranking systems not brought up in
the Davis article? If they don’t work, Davis and others should let
us all know. Why are ABC lists and their creation by boards with
review by the public not discussed? The comment paper, is an
opinion that needs to be fleshed out into a real peer reviewed, complete
and unbiased article that evaluates invasive species management, how
species are prioritized for management, and what efforts are a success,
failure or waste of time. All this should be in the context of the
human as well as environmental need to adapt to a changing world.
<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I believe we still have a long way to go in achieving
the best management strategies across the board. With all due respect,
to criticize management efforts while ignoring attempts to improve
management is at best incompetent. <U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>This is an important discussion that should continue
well beyond this listserve.<U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Gino
Graziano, NRS<BR>Invasive Weeds and Agricultural Pest
Coordinator</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">DNR, Division of
Agriculture</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Plant Materials Center</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5310 S. Bodenburg Spur
Road</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Palmer, AK 99645</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">907-745-8127</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR><A
href="mailto:Gino..Graziano@Alaska.gov" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Gino.Graziano@Alaska.gov</SPAN></A><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="http://www.dnr.state.ak.us/ag/ag_pmc.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.dnr.state.ak.us/ag/ag_pmc.htm</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>Gena Fleming<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:07
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Hi
All:</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Re: "I presume that
everyone has actually read the recent Davis, et al
paper?"</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I don't think a link
has been posted..... just in case, this will take you to
it:</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/news/pdf/061411_deltredici_nature.pdf"
target=_blank>http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/news/pdf/061411_deltredici_nature.pdf</A> </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I'm really enjoying
this discussion. There is a lot of disinformation that can hide
behind outdated terminology. New terminology is a good idea.
But even still, one needs to stay on top of whatever terminology one is
are using, and think about what is really happening in any given
context.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I can already hear
promoters of biotechnology grabbing the "Don't judge species on their
origins" mantra to defend genetically engineered species.
This would be unfortunate, because the preoccupation with "non-native"
exotics, I feel, is partially to blame for genetically egineered species
being, for the most part, ignored by conservationists. We
have all these databases cropping up that employ citizen scientists to
report location of "non-native" exotics. Meanwhile, genetically
engineered organisms are granted secret locations, and it is even
claimed that insertion of foreign DNA from a different genus doesn't
really change the species.....</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">This is also related
to microbiology being replaced by molecular biology..... and biology
being diverted by biotechnology.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I hope we can soon
end this war agains nature and find a new consciousness to guide our
observation and interactions. As has already been said, this is
going to take good critical thinking skills because, of course, any
organism living in nature is transforming that environment,
"manipulating" it to a certain extent. But there needs to be a
more qualitative and nuanced understanding of what kind of
transformation we should be engaged in with our environment, one that is
mutually beneficial. That understanding will benefit from
terminology, but it will also need to be an ongoing exploratory process,
subject to open dialogue, criticism and review. Words, like
organisms, can mean one thing in one context, and quite another in a new
context..</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">As for the current
definition of "invasive", I do not think any term should lump ecologic
impact with economic impact as a qualifying criteria. That's just
bad juju.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">It's late. Not
sure how convoluted this sounds, but that's my stream of consciousness
for now.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Anyway, I'm enjoying
reading the discussion ---- thanks</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">best,</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Gena</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On 19 July 2011 18:14, Wayne Tyson <<A
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net" target=_blank>landrest@cox.net</A>>
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Dominic Maze,
friends, and APWG:</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Dominic, I mostly
agree with your observations, but here is what I was stimulated to write
(it's more than colloquial; it's a stream-of-consciousness first draft,
far from acceptable for publication).</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I do not think that
ecology is a "soft" doctrine as opposed to a <EM><SPAN>science,
</SPAN></EM>as I consider the heart of science to be the asking of
questions about Nature or "reality." I do think those who call
themselves "ecologists" worry too much about "standing" and not enough
about just getting on with the work and damn the torpedoes, the slings
and arrows of outrageous petulance by the egocentric. While I might
agree with His Pre-eminence’s (Rutherford's) comment about botany as
taxonomy to some degree (to the extent that some "botanists" DO seem to
limit themselves to pursuing taxonomic glory more than
understanding of Nature), but have no use for sniffy remarks like his in
all contexts (I don't know in what context he made the remark, but it
seems needlessly rude). </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">My private position
is "Screw the posturers!" Ignore such stuff. If one is intimidated by
physics, join the club (Einstein, Feynman). But courage often consists
of ignoring posturing (and Lordy knows we are surrounded by such
dick-heads.) Academia is drowning in Greek letters, algorithms, and
prissy, ill-founded jargon; what it needs, especially ecology, is to
drop the pretenses and the insecurities that give rise to them, and get
on with the work of understanding what makes Nature tick. Botany is a
helluva lot more than taxonomy. Arguing from authority is a
not-well-enough-known logical fallacy, and too much discussion is
colored with such divergent manipulation. </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I didn't even know
what "ecology" meant when I started college in 1956, but I had the good
fortune to have Lee Haines as a professor; Haines was a true man for all
disciplines, and he taught botany and ecology together, along with other
disciplines as needed. I still use his first lesson every day--he placed
two Petri dishes before us, one with some muck and a planarian, the
other with agar and a bacterial culture, some pipettes, saline
solution, and some pennicilium mold. He taught is how to key out plants,
yes, but he also taught us life zones, succession, and other useful
knowledge. But most of all, he taught us how to think (now known as
"critical thinking"). We camped out a lot, and sang around the campfire.
Later professors had a high standard to live up to, as did we students.
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I did turn to the
Executive Order on Invasive Species, and I thought it to be more
political bunk than science.. It specifically excluded humans and their
livestock and crops. Science requires honesty and that is simply
dishonesty. There would be no “invasive species” problem if it weren’t
for those exclusions. That’s an outrage. </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I quite agree with
Maze that terms like “ruderal” and “healthy” need to be clarified or
eliminated, but someone has to come up with something better, preferably
a family of related terms that do not contradict each other. I’m not so
confident that “new terms will inevitably arise.” I fear that the
confusion will multiply as egocentricity continues to reign, covering
its doubtful tracks with obfuscation and pseudo-intellectual fog.
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I wasn’t referring to
<I>Impatiens capensis</I>; I meant to call for clarity of communication,
however, far beyond “peers.” (I do, however, thank Vanderploeg for
stimulating my question.) A major problem with the anti-science,
anti-intellectual fever in this country can be laid at the feet of the
academic “peerage.” Recent analysis of the Declaration of Independence
has revealed that Jefferson erased “subjects” and wrote over it
“citizens.” Unless there’s a good reason to do so, terminology should
not be reduced to academic jargon—it drives away the curious, the
amateur, yes, even the dilettante. These should be embraced, not
shunned. Just what do truly superior intellects have to fear from
the rabble--that they will climb up the ivy? And they should know
what the hell we’re talking about in “colloquial” terms if possible,
presuming clarity. But at least "we" should know,
eh? </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I look forward
to the definition of terms that can be widely accepted as the
standard for both colloquial (maybe a glossary?) and scientifically
acceptable terms.. (And oh, while you're about it, how about a new term
for "brush?") </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">WT</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">PS: I presume that
everyone has actually read the recent Davis, et al paper?
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">“I have sworn eternal
vigilance over every form of tyranny over the mind of man.” –Thomas
Jefferson</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">“The only thing that
interferes with my learning is my education.” –Albert
Einstein</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">“The suspension of
judgment is the highest exercise in intellectual discipline.” –Raymond
Gilmore</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
title=Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov
href="mailto:Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Maze, Dominic</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
title=jrandall@email.unc.edu href="mailto:jrandall@email.unc.edu"
target=_blank><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">'Randall, John
L'</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> ; </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A title=landrest@cox.net
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Wayne Tyson</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> ; </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
title=wvanderploeg@ameritech.net
href="mailto:wvanderploeg@ameritech.net" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Wayne Vanderploeg</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> ; </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
title=katie@westernwatersheds.org
href="mailto:katie@westernwatersheds.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Katie Fite</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> ; </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
title=apwg@lists..plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:11 PM</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> RE: [APWG] Terminology still unresolved?
Re: Jewelweed</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I
couldn’t agree more, Mr. Tyson, on the importance of using proper (and
well-defined) terminology in any sub-discipline of ecology. After all,
ecology itself has often been considered the “soft” doctrine of the
biological sciences, and any clarification and standardization of
terminology is welcome and necessary to furthering effective research,
communication, and “conservation” (and increasing the relative
standing of ecology as a discipline). When considering ecology’s
standing as a science, I am often reminded of the pre-eminent
physicist, Sir Ernest Rutherford’s dismissive comment of turn of the
(last)-century botany (and I paraphrase), “Botany is fine; it is about
as difficult a science as stamp-collecting.”
[ouch!]</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> I too,
turn to the definition of invasive species posted below and often
point out that a species which escapes at a constricted scale and
doesn’t persist in the environment (displays low population fitness)
is not (to me) “invasive” (and I am reluctant to use term even though
it is part of my job title!). However, at what temporal and spatial
scales do we arbitrarily choose to demarcate as a threshold for
“invasive” or not? Defining populations as “r” or “K” were once
valuable in the budding discipline of population biology and ecology;
and while still taught in Universities, these have similar
limitations; just as the once useful definitions “apex” or “healthy”
(or even trying to fit population dynamics to a Lotka-Voltera” model)
do. These limitations create problems such as your (common)
distinction between “ruderal” and “healthy” (does this mean that all
“ruderal” systems are “unhealthy”?). As a result, these terms
and approaches fall from favor and the supporting concepts evolve to
better describe the wide range of dynamics we observe and
record. New terms will inevitably
arise.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">As to
<I>Impatiens capensis</I>: I’m not sure if your last two
sentences, “It appears that some believe there is no distinction. I
would appreciate any correction, definitions, or suggestions that will
bring discipline to communication about these subjects.” refers to the
present discussion about this species. If it does, I would
suggest reading the excellent Zika papers below. If it doesn’t,
and speaks to the larger issue of communication among peers, then
perhaps the lack of distinction stems from colloquial discussions such
as this one. Either way, your point is a very important one that bears
consideration and we would all be wise to retain
it.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Cheers,</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dominic Maze</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> | </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Invasive Species Coordinator
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">City of Portland Environmental
Services</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">1120 SW 5th Avenue, Room
1000</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Portland, Oregon
97204</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">p: (503)
823-4899</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">f: (503)
823-5344</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov"
target=_blank>dominic.maze@portlandoregon..gov</A></SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Randall, John L [mailto:<A href="mailto:jrandall@email.unc.edu"
target=_blank>jrandall@email.unc.edu</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday,
July 19, 2011 12:22 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Wayne Tyson; Wayne Vanderploeg;
Maze, Dominic; Katie Fite; <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists..plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: [APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I
always turn to the Executive Order on Invasive Species for my
“invasive species” definition, which is: “an alien species* whose
introduction does or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm
or harm to human health.” As for those plant species that
occur/specialize in disturbed areas – I generally call these either
native or alien weeds. </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">(*”Alien species" means, with
respect to a particular ecosystem, any species, including its seeds,
eggs, spores, or other biological material capable of propagating that
species, that is not native to that ecosystem.)
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Johnny
Randall</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> <A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:37
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Wayne Vanderploeg; Maze, Dominic; Katie Fite; <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation..org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Hello
all,</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Is there anyone who
acknowledges (or would it be simpler to say "does not acknowledge")
that there is at least a phenomenological difference between
"alien" species that are largely restricted to disturbed sites and
those which "invade" healthy ecosystems?
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I realize that some
of the terminology used here is debatable too, and such discussion are
worth having, but it would appear, if "invasion ecology" is to be
taken seriously as a sub-discipline of ecology, that clarity of
terminology is vital to clear communication. Time was, colonization
referred to any movement of an organism into a "new" location, plants
(what about animals?) that were restricted to disturbed areas were
termed "ruderal," and "alien" organisms that colonized
healthy/undisturbed ecosystems were called "invasive."
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">It appears that
some believe there is no distinction. I would appreciate any
correction, definitions, or suggestions that will bring discipline to
communication about these subjects. </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">WT</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">----- Original
Message ----- </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=wvanderploeg@ameritech.net
href="mailto:wvanderploeg@ameritech.net" target=_blank>Wayne
Vanderploeg</A> </SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov
href="mailto:Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov" target=_blank>Maze,
Dominic</A> ; <A title=katie@westernwatersheds.org
href="mailto:katie@westernwatersheds.org" target=_blank>Katie
Fite</A> ; <A title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists..plantconservation.org</A>
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Tuesday, July 19, 2011 10:24
AM</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [APWG]
Jewelweed</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Hello All,
<BR><BR>I don't usually make comment to this group....I generally
browse this list to see what new issues are popping up. As a
biologist/ecologist/naturalist/land manager for 31 years in the
Chicago area with the Forest Preserve District of Cook County, I
have seen this plant come and go. Deer do browse it heavily
and tend to prefer it over most other plants. It does well in
disturbed areas where the soil is rich, moist and semi shaded.
I have always viewed it as sensitive plant that is easily displaced
by weeds and never thought of it as a problem plant in the Chicago
area. The fact that it is spreading prolifically in other
areas where it typically does not occur could be a symptom of a
bigger problem. I would expect it to disappear when those
problems are discovered and solved. <BR><BR>Wayne
Vanderploeg</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=1 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> "Maze, Dominic" <<A
href="mailto:Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov"
target=_blank>Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov</A>><BR><B>To:</B>
Katie Fite <<A href="mailto:katie@westernwatersheds.org"
target=_blank>katie@westernwatersheds.org</A>>; "<A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>" <<A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Tue, July 19, 2011 11:42:18 AM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG]
Jewelweed</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi
Katie et alia,</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <I>Impatiens
capensis</I> is, in my experience, a problematic species here west
of the Cascade Range in the Pacific NW. The densities of this
sp. are pretty amazing with the understory of riparian corridors
often dominated by it. I’ve been seeing more and more of it in
the Willamette Valley and surrounding ranges here in Oregon with
seemingly little attention paid to it.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Interestingly,
some land managers still consider this species native here on the
West Coast, probably due to confusion with our native, <I>I.
ecalcarata</I> in some older floras and field guides. Ed
Alverson of TNC wrote a short comment in reply to a posting on <I>I.
capensis</I> at the Botany Photo of the Day
website:</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #333333">“Impatiens capensis
is an introduced and invasive species in the Pacific Northwest ,
west of the Cascades. Peter Zika addressed this issue in a 2006
paper, "The status of Impatiens capensis (Balsaminaceae) on
the<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #333333; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Pacific Northwest coast",
published in the Journal of the Torrey Botanical Club, vol. 133 pp..
593-600. In fact, I. capensis is spreading into the habitats of the
uncommon native I. ecalcarata west of the Cascades, and the two
species are hybridizing. This has created a situation where the
native species is potentially being out-competed by both the
introduced species and by their hybrids. Zika has published another
paper on the hybrid, which he has named Impatiens x pacifica , see
"Impatiens x pacifica (Balsaminaceae), a New Hybrid jewelweed from
the Pacific Northwest Coast of North America", Novon vol. 16, pp.
443-448, 2006.”</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Add
this spp. to <I>I. glandulifera</I> (a big problem) and <I>I.
balfourii</I> (an escaping species which may be a problem in the
future), and we’ve got our hands full out here with the
touch-me-nots.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Dominic Maze</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="COLOR: green; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> | </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Invasive Species Coordinator
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">City of Portland Environmental
Services</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1120 SW 5th Avenue, Room
1000</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Portland, Oregon
97204</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">p: (503)
823-4899</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">f: (503)
823-5344</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: gray; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="mailto:dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov"
target=_blank>dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov</A></SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
[mailto:<A href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Katie Fite<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 18, 2011 5:46
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[APWG] Jewelweed</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Has anyone had any experience with
jewelweed (Impatiens) native to the eastern U. S. becoming weedy in
valley marsh habitats in the intermountain West? <BR><BR>I see that
jewelweed <I>Impatiens capensis</I> (orange jewelweed) is listed as
a King County (WA) “Weed of Concern”. <BR><BR>This species is
shown as having a yellow flowered form, which is what we are
seeing.<BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><A
href="http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/animalsAndPlants/noxious-weeds/laws/list.aspx"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/animalsAndPlants/noxious-weeds/laws/list.aspx</SPAN></A><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Katie Fite<BR>Western Watersheds
Project<BR><A href="mailto:katie@westernwatersheds.org"
target=_blank>katie@westernwatersheds.org</A><BR><BR> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's
Alien Plant Working Group mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><BR>Disclaimer<BR>Any
requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the
opinion of the individual posting the message.
</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
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<HR align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version:
10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3774 - Release Date:
07/19/11<U></U><U></U></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR style="COLOR: #aca899" align=center SIZE=1 width="100%" noShade>
</DIV>
<P>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version:
10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3774 - Release Date:
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<P
class=MsoNormal><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's
Alien Plant Working Group mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><A
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<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR style="COLOR: #a0a0a0" align=center SIZE=1 width="100%" noShade>
</DIV>
<P>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version:
10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3787 - Release Date:
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<P>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
<P></P><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's Alien
Plant Working Group mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><A
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target=_blank>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><BR>Disclaimer<BR>Any
requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the opinion
of the individual posting the message. </DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P><A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com/" target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3796 - Release Date:
07/29/11</DIV>
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<HR SIZE=1 noShade>
<A></A>
<P class=avgcert align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus
Database: 1518/3796 - Release Date: 07/29/11</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>