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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ty et al: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Speaking of being picky about terms, I am so
radical that I have long campaigned for minimizing disturbance in the first
place, modifying rather than replacing indigenous ecosystems, and restoring
functioning ecosystems (self-sufficient, self-perpetuating) rather than
"landscaping with native plants." The reason for this has more with promoting a
true understanding of ecosystems and dealing with them in a way that does not
needlessly waste biological and other resources. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There is a HUGE difference between ecosystem
restoration and management and "landscaping with native plants" and their
"maintenance. I suspect that there are some people, perhaps a significant
number, who are not aware of the crucial differences between the two, but I have
no way of knowing for sure. I have, in the past, always presumed that most
people did, in fact, understand the difference, but over the years I have
grown increasingly less confident that this is the case. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>WT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>PS: I will comment separately on the B. tectorum
issue. You, Ty, are probably also aware that, rare though San Diego area canyon
biological associations are, the "mesa" ones are practically extinct and no one
seems to care. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tyju@xmission.com href="mailto:tyju@xmission.com">Ty Harrison</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=landrest@cox.net
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">Wayne Tyson</A> ; <A title=ialm@erols.com
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com">Marc Imlay</A> ; <A title=rlb14@cornell.edu
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu">'Robert Layton Beyfuss'</A> ; <A
title=gino.graziano@alaska.gov
href="mailto:gino.graziano@alaska.gov">'Graziano, Gino A (DNR)'</A> ; <A
title=genafleming@gmail.com href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">'Gena
Fleming'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 29, 2011 3:51 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] Terminology still
unresolved? Re: Jewelweed</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne et al.: I likewise comiserate with
those of us who see the value in regional native plant landscaping to avoid
the pitfalls of exotic landscape species escaping. I've seen the native
chaparral ravine flora of San Diego essentially destroyed, and am now seeing
the same thing happening in the native oak foothill vegetation along the
Wasatch Front here in Utah where I live. Unfortunately there is
evidence from the Bromus tectorum invasion here in the West, that these
invading species have evolved rapidly and genetically to become
adapted to the local climates. Apparently, like the poor, they will be
with us forever. Ty Harrison</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=landrest@cox.net href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">Wayne Tyson</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ialm@erols.com
href="mailto:ialm@erols.com">Marc Imlay</A> ; <A title=rlb14@cornell.edu
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu">'Robert Layton Beyfuss'</A> ; <A
title=gino.graziano@alaska.gov
href="mailto:gino.graziano@alaska.gov">'Graziano, Gino A (DNR)'</A> ; <A
title=genafleming@gmail.com href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">'Gena
Fleming'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:39
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] Terminology still
unresolved? Re: Jewelweed</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Friends and cyberneighbors:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One way of helping stem the perilous tide of
unwanted plant immigrants is to select those which cannot reproduce,
preferably on the continent, but certainly in the region to which it is
introduced. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Long have I labored in vain to convince
landscape architects that they should at least consider an indigenous
species first with respect to function (better adapted, therefore so easy to
grow that it needs no cultivation). But on the other hand, if an exotic
plant is to be introduced, let it be one so severely maladapted that it
cannot reproduce. At least avoid those which come from a similar ecosystem,
which are more likely to find local (or perhaps continental) conditions so
salubrious that they will run rampant, trampling out the vintage and little
children across this Great Land. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>WT</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ialm@erols.com href="mailto:ialm@erols.com">Marc Imlay</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=rlb14@cornell.edu
href="mailto:rlb14@cornell.edu">'Robert Layton Beyfuss'</A> ; <A
title=gino.graziano@alaska.gov
href="mailto:gino.graziano@alaska.gov">'Graziano, Gino A (DNR)'</A> ; <A
title=genafleming@gmail.com href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">'Gena
Fleming'</A> ; <A title=landrest@cox.net
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">'Wayne Tyson'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 28, 2011 2:26
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [APWG] Terminology still
unresolved? Re: Jewelweed</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=625581909-28072011><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff><STRONG>Just a clarification. Not including exotic plants in
publicly funded projects should not increase tax dollars since there are
plenty of native plants that can be used. Marc</STRONG></FONT></SPAN>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Robert Layton Beyfuss<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 25, 2011 5:32
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Graziano, Gino A (DNR); Gena Fleming; Wayne
Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Hi
All<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">As
long as the term “invasive” is restricted to place of origin
as in the Presidential E.O. definition </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">“an
alien species* whose introduction does or is likely to cause economic or
environmental harm or harm to human health.” </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #4f81bd; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">and
requires an asterisk * to further define that cryptic term, many people
will equate exotic or alien with invasive and will make stupid decisions
based on that misunderstanding. Here in NY state we have executive
orders on several levels of state government banning all “exotic” plants
in publicly funded projects, not invasive exotic plants, but ALL exotic
plants. Currently there is a grant i.e. a publicly funded project
underway in parts of NY City to remove all exotic species in a particular
area that includes parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan, regardless of their
reproductive status or whether or not they are weeds and replace them with
native plants. This is a serious and needless waste of my tax dollars and
an infringement on my rights as a citizen to enjoy plants that cause no
harm but are condemned because of their country of origin. We have state
funded swat teams travelling around NY now spraying herbicide on Giant
Hogweed at a cost of 1 million $ with zero chance of eradicating it or
even seriously slowing its spread. I would much rather see the money spent
on studies that are trying to understand why these plants are spreading
but the money is there to kill and not to understand why.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #4f81bd; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
think most people on this list serve realize that the terms alien or
exotic mean from a different ecosystem than the one they are introduced
into and not just a different country but most laypeople will not. This is
the fundamental flaw of invasion biology as a science and what has
provoked backlash, as in the article in discussion.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #4f81bd; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Bob</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: #4f81bd; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Graziano, Gino A (DNR)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:51
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Gena Fleming; Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B>
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] Terminology
still unresolved? Re: Jewelweed<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Re: "I
presume that everyone has actually read the recent Davis, et al
paper?"</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I read the article, heard
him talk on Science Friday, and read the transcript of the program.
I found the article and interview to be timely, however largely and
disturbingly an incomplete account of how invasive species managers are
making decisions. First though, I will commend the efforts of the
authors because there are many individuals and land managers that do not
take the time to critically evaluate the best available information and
manage “invasive” species based on nativity instead of real threat to
resources. I also agree that a lot of the language used to describe
invasive species lends to public and land manager bias to non-native
species in general. Both of these issues are real and are
counterproductive to natural resource management.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>As a state coordinator of invasive species management
in Alaska, I regularly discuss the need to focus on those few species that
are really problematic and not just any species based on nativity alone.
The concept of only a few problematic species is not new and was brought
up by Williams in his 1996 book “Biological Invasions” where he presented
the “Tens rule” (you all know that though). Focus on true problems,
is increasingly becoming the norm as many regions of the world are
developing invasiveness ranking systems that seek to clarify which species
are ecosystem changers and which are simply persistent in habitats that we
(humans) develop (e.g. roadsides, gravel pits, air strips etc.). The
ranking system Alaska uses is found at <A
href="http://aknhp.uaa.alaska.edu/botany/akepic/non-native-plant-species-biographies/">http://aknhp.uaa.alaska.edu/botany/akepic/non-native-plant-species-biographies/</A>.
No ranking alone is the guiding decision tool and the authors of Alaska’s
acknowledge that management/regulatory action still requires more insight
into economic, social and environmental interactions a species has in an
area.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>So, I ask why are ranking systems not brought up in the
Davis article? If they don’t work, Davis and others should let us
all know. Why are ABC lists and their creation by boards with review
by the public not discussed? The comment paper, is an opinion that
needs to be fleshed out into a real peer reviewed, complete and unbiased
article that evaluates invasive species management, how species are
prioritized for management, and what efforts are a success, failure or
waste of time. All this should be in the context of the human as
well as environmental need to adapt to a changing world.
<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I believe we still have a long way to go in achieving
the best management strategies across the board. With all due respect, to
criticize management efforts while ignoring attempts to improve management
is at best incompetent. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>This is an important discussion that should continue
well beyond this listserve.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Gino
Graziano, NRS<BR>Invasive Weeds and Agricultural Pest
Coordinator</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">DNR,
Division of Agriculture</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Plant
Materials Center</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">5310
S. Bodenburg Spur Road</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Palmer,
AK 99645</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">907-745-8127</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR><A
href="mailto:Gino.Graziano@Alaska.gov"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Gino.Graziano@Alaska.gov</SPAN></A><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.dnr.state.ak.us/ag/ag_pmc.htm">http://www.dnr.state.ak...us/ag/ag_pmc.htm</A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Gena
Fleming<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:07 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Cc:</B>
apwg@lists.plantconservation.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG] Terminology
still unresolved? Re: Jewelweed<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Hi
All:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Re: "I
presume that everyone has actually read the recent Davis, et al
paper?"</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I don't think
a link has been posted..... just in case, this will take you to
it:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/news/pdf/061411_deltredici_nature.pdf">http://www.gsd.harvard.edu/news/pdf/061411_deltredici_nature.pdf</A> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I'm really enjoying
this discussion. There is a lot of disinformation that can hide
behind outdated terminology. New terminology is a good idea.
But even still, one needs to stay on top of whatever terminology one is
are using, and think about what is really happening in any given
context.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I can already hear
promoters of biotechnology grabbing the "Don't judge species on their
origins" mantra to defend genetically engineered species. This
would be unfortunate, because the preoccupation with "non-native" exotics,
I feel, is partially to blame for genetically egineered species being, for
the most part, ignored by conservationists. We have all these
databases cropping up that employ citizen scientists to report location of
"non-native" exotics. Meanwhile, genetically engineered organisms
are granted secret locations, and it is even claimed that insertion of
foreign DNA from a different genus doesn't really change the
species.....</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">This is also related to
microbiology being replaced by molecular biology..... and biology being
diverted by biotechnology.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I hope we can soon end
this war agains nature and find a new consciousness to guide our
observation and interactions. As has already been said, this is
going to take good critical thinking skills because, of course, any
organism living in nature is transforming that environment, "manipulating"
it to a certain extent. But there needs to be a more qualitative and
nuanced understanding of what kind of transformation we should be engaged
in with our environment, one that is mutually beneficial. That
understanding will benefit from terminology, but it will also need to be
an ongoing exploratory process, subject to open dialogue, criticism and
review. Words, like organisms, can mean one thing in one context,
and quite another in a new context.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">As for the current
definition of "invasive", I do not think any term should lump ecologic
impact with economic impact as a qualifying criteria. That's just
bad juju.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">It's late. Not
sure how convoluted this sounds, but that's my stream of consciousness for
now.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Anyway, I'm enjoying
reading the discussion ---- thanks</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">best,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Gena</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On 19 July 2011 18:14, Wayne Tyson <<A
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">landrest@cox.net</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dominic Maze,
friends, and APWG:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dominic, I
mostly agree with your observations, but here is what I was stimulated to
write (it's more than colloquial; it's a stream-of-consciousness first
draft, far from acceptable for publication).</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I do not
think that ecology is a "soft" doctrine as opposed to a <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">science, </SPAN></EM>as I
consider the heart of science to be the asking of questions about Nature
or "reality." I do think those who call themselves "ecologists" worry too
much about "standing" and not enough about just getting on with the work
and damn the torpedoes, the slings and arrows of outrageous petulance by
the egocentric. While I might agree with His Pre-eminence’s (Rutherford's)
comment about botany as taxonomy to some degree (to the extent that some
"botanists" DO seem to limit themselves to pursuing taxonomic glory
more than understanding of Nature), but have no use for sniffy remarks
like his in all contexts (I don't know in what context he made the remark,
but it seems needlessly rude). </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">My private
position is "Screw the posturers!" Ignore such stuff. If one is
intimidated by physics, join the club (Einstein, Feynman). But courage
often consists of ignoring posturing (and Lordy knows we are surrounded by
such dick-heads.) Academia is drowning in Greek letters, algorithms, and
prissy, ill-founded jargon; what it needs, especially ecology, is to drop
the pretenses and the insecurities that give rise to them, and get on with
the work of understanding what makes Nature tick. Botany is a helluva lot
more than taxonomy. Arguing from authority is a not-well-enough-known
logical fallacy, and too much discussion is colored with such divergent
manipulation. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I didn't even
know what "ecology" meant when I started college in 1956, but I had the
good fortune to have Lee Haines as a professor; Haines was a true man for
all disciplines, and he taught botany and ecology together, along with
other disciplines as needed. I still use his first lesson every day--he
placed two Petri dishes before us, one with some muck and a planarian, the
other with agar and a bacterial culture, some pipettes, saline
solution, and some pennicilium mold. He taught is how to key out plants,
yes, but he also taught us life zones, succession, and other useful
knowledge. But most of all, he taught us how to think (now known as
"critical thinking"). We camped out a lot, and sang around the campfire.
Later professors had a high standard to live up to, as did we students.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I did turn to
the Executive Order on Invasive Species, and I thought it to be more
political bunk than science. It specifically excluded humans and their
livestock and crops. Science requires honesty and that is simply
dishonesty. There would be no “invasive species” problem if it weren’t for
those exclusions. That’s an outrage. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I quite agree
with Maze that terms like “ruderal” and “healthy” need to be clarified or
eliminated, but someone has to come up with something better, preferably a
family of related terms that do not contradict each other. I’m not so
confident that “new terms will inevitably arise.” I fear that the
confusion will multiply as egocentricity continues to reign, covering its
doubtful tracks with obfuscation and pseudo-intellectual fog.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I wasn’t
referring to <I>Impatiens capensis</I>; I meant to call for clarity of
communication, however, far beyond “peers.” (I do, however, thank
Vanderploeg for stimulating my question.) A major problem with the
anti-science, anti-intellectual fever in this country can be laid at the
feet of the academic “peerage.” Recent analysis of the Declaration of
Independence has revealed that Jefferson erased “subjects” and wrote over
it “citizens.” Unless there’s a good reason to do so, terminology should
not be reduced to academic jargon—it drives away the curious, the amateur,
yes, even the dilettante. These should be embraced, not shunned. Just what
do truly superior intellects have to fear from the rabble--that they
will climb up the ivy? And they should know what the hell we’re
talking about in “colloquial” terms if possible, presuming clarity. But at
least "we" should know, eh? </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I look
forward to the definition of terms that can be widely accepted
as the standard for both colloquial (maybe a glossary?) and
scientifically acceptable terms. (And oh, while you're about it, how about
a new term for "brush?") </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">WT</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">PS: I presume
that everyone has actually read the recent Davis, et al paper?
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">“I have sworn
eternal vigilance over every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”
–Thomas Jefferson</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">“The only
thing that interferes with my learning is my education.” –Albert
Einstein</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">“The
suspension of judgment is the highest exercise in intellectual
discipline.” –Raymond Gilmore</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov
href="mailto:Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Maze, Dominic</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=jrandall@email.unc.edu href="mailto:jrandall@email.unc.edu"
target=_blank><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">'Randall, John
L'</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> ;
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=landrest@cox.net href="mailto:landrest@cox.net"
target=_blank><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Wayne
Tyson</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> ;
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=wvanderploeg@ameritech.net
href="mailto:wvanderploeg@ameritech.net" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Wayne Vanderploeg</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> ;
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=katie@westernwatersheds.org
href="mailto:katie@westernwatersheds.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Katie Fite</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> ;
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><A
title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org" target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</SPAN></A></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Tuesday,
July 19, 2011 2:11 PM</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> RE: [APWG]
Terminology still unresolved? Re: Jewelweed</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
couldn’t agree more, Mr. Tyson, on the importance of using proper (and
well-defined) terminology in any sub-discipline of ecology. After all,
ecology itself has often been considered the “soft” doctrine of the
biological sciences, and any clarification and standardization of
terminology is welcome and necessary to furthering effective research,
communication, and “conservation” (and increasing the relative standing
of ecology as a discipline). When considering ecology’s standing as a
science, I am often reminded of the pre-eminent physicist, Sir Ernest
Rutherford’s dismissive comment of turn of the (last)-century botany
(and I paraphrase), “Botany is fine; it is about as difficult a science
as stamp-collecting.” [ouch!]</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
I too, turn to the definition of invasive species posted below and often
point out that a species which escapes at a constricted scale and
doesn’t persist in the environment (displays low population fitness) is
not (to me) “invasive” (and I am reluctant to use term even though it is
part of my job title!). However, at what temporal and spatial scales do
we arbitrarily choose to demarcate as a threshold for “invasive” or
not? Defining populations as “r” or “K” were once valuable in the
budding discipline of population biology and ecology; and while still
taught in Universities, these have similar limitations; just as the once
useful definitions “apex” or “healthy” (or even trying to fit population
dynamics to a Lotka-Voltera” model) do. These limitations create
problems such as your (common) distinction between “ruderal” and
“healthy” (does this mean that all “ruderal” systems are “unhealthy”?).
As a result, these terms and approaches fall from favor and the
supporting concepts evolve to better describe the wide range of dynamics
we observe and record. New terms will inevitably
arise.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">As
to <I>Impatiens capensis</I>: I’m not sure if your last two
sentences, “It appears that some believe there is no distinction. I
would appreciate any correction, definitions, or suggestions that will
bring discipline to communication about these subjects.” refers to the
present discussion about this species. If it does, I would suggest
reading the excellent Zika papers below. If it doesn’t, and speaks
to the larger issue of communication among peers, then perhaps the lack
of distinction stems from colloquial discussions such as this one.
Either way, your point is a very important one that bears consideration
and we would all be wise to retain it.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Cheers,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dominic
Maze</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
| </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Invasive
Species Coordinator </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">City
of Portland Environmental Services</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">1120
SW 5th Avenue, Room 1000</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Portland,
Oregon 97204</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">p:
(503) 823-4899</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">f:
(503) 823-5344</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="mailto:dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov"
target=_blank>dominic.maze@portlandoregon..gov</A></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Randall,
John L [mailto:<A href="mailto:jrandall@email.unc.edu"
target=_blank>jrandall@email.unc.edu</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July
19, 2011 12:22 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Wayne Tyson; Wayne Vanderploeg; Maze,
Dominic; Katie Fite; <A href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
RE: [APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">I
always turn to the Executive Order on Invasive Species for my “invasive
species” definition, which is: “an alien species* whose introduction
does or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to
human health.” As for those plant species that occur/specialize in
disturbed areas – I generally call these either native or alien weeds.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">(*”Alien
species" means, with respect to a particular ecosystem, any species,
including its seeds, eggs, spores, or other biological material capable
of propagating that species, that is not native to that ecosystem.)
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Johnny
Randall</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] <B>On Behalf
Of </B>Wayne Tyson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:37
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Wayne Vanderploeg; Maze, Dominic; Katie Fite; <A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[APWG] Terminology still unresolved? Re:
Jewelweed</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hello
all,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Is there
anyone who acknowledges (or would it be simpler to say "does not
acknowledge") that there is at least a phenomenological difference
between "alien" species that are largely restricted to disturbed sites
and those which "invade" healthy ecosystems?
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I realize
that some of the terminology used here is debatable too, and such
discussion are worth having, but it would appear, if "invasion ecology"
is to be taken seriously as a sub-discipline of ecology, that clarity of
terminology is vital to clear communication. Time was, colonization
referred to any movement of an organism into a "new" location, plants
(what about animals?) that were restricted to disturbed areas were
termed "ruderal," and "alien" organisms that colonized
healthy/undisturbed ecosystems were called "invasive."
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">It appears
that some believe there is no distinction. I would appreciate any
correction, definitions, or suggestions that will bring discipline to
communication about these subjects. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">WT</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">-----
Original Message ----- </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=wvanderploeg@ameritech.net
href="mailto:wvanderploeg@ameritech.net" target=_blank>Wayne
Vanderploeg</A> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> <A
title=Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov
href="mailto:Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov" target=_blank>Maze,
Dominic</A> ; <A title=katie@westernwatersheds.org
href="mailto:katie@westernwatersheds.org" target=_blank>Katie Fite</A>
; <A title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Tuesday,
July 19, 2011 10:24 AM</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> Re: [APWG]
Jewelweed</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Hello All, <BR><BR>I don't usually make
comment to this group....I generally browse this list to see what new
issues are popping up. As a biologist/ecologist/naturalist/land
manager for 31 years in the Chicago area with the Forest Preserve
District of Cook County, I have seen this plant come and go.
Deer do browse it heavily and tend to prefer it over most other
plants. It does well in disturbed areas where the soil is rich,
moist and semi shaded. I have always viewed it as sensitive
plant that is easily displaced by weeds and never thought of it as a
problem plant in the Chicago area. The fact that it is spreading
prolifically in other areas where it typically does not occur could be
a symptom of a bigger problem. I would expect it to disappear
when those problems are discovered and solved. <BR><BR>Wayne
Vanderploeg</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>
</SPAN></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> "Maze,
Dominic" <<A href="mailto:Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov"
target=_blank>Dominic.Maze@portlandoregon.gov</A>><BR><B>To:</B>
Katie Fite <<A href="mailto:katie@westernwatersheds.org"
target=_blank>katie@westernwatersheds.org</A>>; "<A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>" <<A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Tue, July 19, 2011 11:42:18 AM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APWG]
Jewelweed</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Hi
Katie et alia,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
<I>Impatiens capensis</I> is, in my experience, a problematic species
here west of the Cascade Range in the Pacific NW. The densities
of this sp. are pretty amazing with the understory of riparian
corridors often dominated by it. I’ve been seeing more and more
of it in the Willamette Valley and surrounding ranges here in Oregon
with seemingly little attention paid to it.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">
Interestingly, some land managers still consider this species native
here on the West Coast, probably due to confusion with our native,
<I>I. ecalcarata</I> in some older floras and field guides. Ed
Alverson of TNC wrote a short comment in reply to a posting on <I>I.
capensis</I> at the Botany Photo of the Day
website:</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow','sans-serif'">“Impatiens
capensis is an introduced and invasive species in the Pacific
Northwest , west of the Cascades. Peter Zika addressed this issue in a
2006 paper, "The status of Impatiens capensis (Balsaminaceae) on
the<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #333333; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow','sans-serif'">Pacific
Northwest coast", published in the Journal of the Torrey Botanical
Club, vol. 133 pp. 593-600. In fact, I. capensis is spreading into the
habitats of the uncommon native I. ecalcarata west of the Cascades,
and the two species are hybridizing. This has created a situation
where the native species is potentially being out-competed by both the
introduced species and by their hybrids. Zika has published another
paper on the hybrid, which he has named Impatiens x pacifica , see
"Impatiens x pacifica (Balsaminaceae), a New Hybrid jewelweed from the
Pacific Northwest Coast of North America", Novon vol. 16, pp. 443-448,
2006.”</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Add
this spp. to <I>I. glandulifera</I> (a big problem) and <I>I.
balfourii</I> (an escaping species which may be a problem in the
future), and we’ve got our hands full out here with the
touch-me-nots.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Dominic
Maze</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
| </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Invasive
Species Coordinator </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">City
of Portland Environmental Services</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">1120
SW 5th Avenue, Room 1000</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Portland,
Oregon 97204</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">p:
(503) 823-4899</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">f:
(503) 823-5344</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: gray; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="mailto:dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov"
target=_blank>dominic.maze@portlandoregon.gov</A></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Katie Fite<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 18, 2011 5:46
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
[APWG] Jewelweed</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Has
anyone had any experience with jewelweed (Impatiens) native to the
eastern U. S. becoming weedy in valley marsh habitats in the
intermountain West? <BR><BR>I see that jewelweed <I>Impatiens
capensis</I> (orange jewelweed) is listed as a King County (WA)
“Weed of Concern”. <BR><BR>This species is shown as having a yellow
flowered form, which is what we are seeing.<BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/animalsAndPlants/noxious-weeds/laws/list.aspx"
target=_blank><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/animalsAndPlants/noxious-weeds/laws/list.aspx</SPAN></A><BR><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Katie
Fite<BR>Western Watersheds Project<BR><A
href="mailto:katie@westernwatersheds.org"
target=_blank>katie@westernwatersheds.org</A><BR><BR> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=3>
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's
Alien Plant Working Group mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><BR>Disclaimer<BR>Any
requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the
opinion of the individual posting the message. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
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<P>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
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<P
class=MsoNormal><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's
Alien Plant Working Group mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org">APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><A
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target=_blank>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><BR>Disclaimer<BR>Any
requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the opinion
of the individual posting the message.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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Plant Working Group mailing
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<P class=avgcert align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this
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