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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>APWG:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"Shouldn't we stop intentionally sowing those
ecosystem-killing weeds onto our highways and public lands?" Craig
Dremmann</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, "we" should stop that practice--and we might
do well to stop constructing straw-men rather than directly addressing the
points made in referenced papers and initial posts that propose only that
discussion of the real issues raised in them take place rather than vague
innuendo. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I hope that I do not err when I presume that the
purpose of this list is to provide a forum for the exchange of facts, data, and
ideas rather than decay into firing squad against firing squad, as it
were . . . I hope that instead that APWG subscribers will elect to shed more
light and less heat upon the pros and cons of all issues raised here.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I offer this quote from the paper initially
submitted for discussion and a link to the paper (which, to obtain enough
information for relevant comment should be read in its entirety); still,
the quote is the opening paragraph, which, to me, seems inconsistent with
Dremmann's closing assertion and misleading with respect (no pun intended) to
the content of the paper under discussion: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>"<FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 27.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy-Bold; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy-Bold">M</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">ost
ecologists and engaged environmentalists justifiably </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">regard
invasive, non-native species as a leading </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">threat
to conservation values. In the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region>, for example,
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">they
are reportedly the second greatest threat to native </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">species,
outranked only by habitat loss (Wilcove </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy-Italic; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy-Italic">et
al</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">.
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">1998).
Increasingly large, though still inadequate, financial </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">resources
are being brought to bear in the campaign </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">against
alien species. Many conservationists feel that to </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">achieve
success resources should be focused on prevention, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy">eradication,
control, and containment." </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Goudy; mso-bidi-font-family: Goudy"><A
href="http://www.globalrestorationnetwork.org/uploads/files/LiteratureAttachments/20_a-place-for-alien-species-in-ecosystem-restoration.pdf"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://www.globalrestorationnetwork.org/uploads/files/LiteratureAttachments/20_a-place-for-alien-species-in-ecosystem-restoration.pdf</FONT></A><?xml:namespace
prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/><o:p></o:p></SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT size=4><FONT
size=2>WT</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT size=4><FONT
size=2></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT size=4><FONT size=2>PS: While it should make
no difference at all to this discussion, I do not necessarily agree with every
point made in the paper; that is never a requirement of mine in considering a
work worthy of intellectual enquiry. I am interested in all discussion,
particularly when it is well-reasoned, both in support and refutation.
</FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>NOTE: Is it considered good form to completely trim
the original subject line when replying to a post? I would prefer, if a
contributor wishes to add a subheading, that the original be retained,
preferably following the original, but when clarity is better served, retaining
it following the new thread (only when an entirely new thread, but still related
in some way to the original post, is logically indicated). I hope that we can
all help us all achieve a better and better listserv community by improving such
protocols when common sense and mutual consideration indicate that improvement
is possible. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:Craig@astreet.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Craig@astreet.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 8:55 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: [APWG] A place for Aliens--steaming in my
compost pile</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> Dear All,<BR>> <BR>> The article -- A place for alien species
in ecosystem<BR>> restoration -- is written from a Hawaiian US Forest Service
perspective,<BR>> where those islands are probably as exotic-infested as we
are here in<BR>> California, and it will take hundreds of millions of dollars
to start the<BR>> conversion back to a 100% native Hawaiian
understory.<BR>> <BR>> When none of the US government agencies, including
the ones with the<BR>> biggest budgets like the Federal Highway admin. or the
military, provide<BR>> any signicant annual per-acre budgets to manage exotic
plants on our<BR>> Federal lands, then perhaps you are going to write
articles trying to put<BR>> a positive spin on exotics, if your agency is
never going to get any funds<BR>> from Congress to do the right
thing.<BR>> <BR>> And at the same time, if Congress is still spending
millions of dollars<BR>> annually to purchase millions of pounds of
exotic seeds, to be sown onto<BR>> our Federal lands, like smooth brome,
crested wheatgrass, exotic clovers,<BR>> etc., and also along Federal
highways, everyone on the List-server should<BR>> expect to see many articles
in the future that promote exotic invasive<BR>> plant use, to justify that
ecosystem destruction?<BR>> <BR>> The Place for Aliens article can be
downloaded for free from Google<BR>> Scholar as a PDF file, and is 7 pages,
at<BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.globalrestorationnetwork.org/uploads/files/LiteratureAttachments/20_a-place-for-alien-species-in-ecosystem-restoration.pdf"><FONT
face=Arial
size=2>http://www.globalrestorationnetwork.org/uploads/files/LiteratureAttachments/20_a-place-for-alien-species-in-ecosystem-restoration.pdf</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> <BR>> Yes, I agree that there is a place for alien
species--nicely composing<BR>> away at a very high temperature to kill its
seeds in my compost pile, to<BR>> feed the native plants in the area, once
the composting process is<BR>> completed.<BR>> <BR>> By the way, my
test plots on exotic annual grasses in Palo Alto, CA. hills<BR>> are
producing some very interesting and unexpected result in terms of<BR>> their
nutrient take-up--drawing down the soil nutrient levels to near<BR>> zero,
and far below where native seedlings can survive.<BR>> <BR>> The exotics
working with the cows and sheep over time, especially in the<BR>> arid West,
can draw down the soil nutrients within a few years, below the<BR>> threshold
where native seedlings can survive, like what I show at<BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.ecoseeds.com/good.example.html"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>http://www.ecoseeds.com/good.example.html</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>. When the native seedlings do<BR>> not have the necessary
levels of nutrients, the seeds germinate and die.<BR>> <BR>> Allelopathy
produced by the exotics killing our natives, and the ability<BR>> of the
weeds to mine and rob soil nutrients from the native seedlings, may<BR>> be
the two strongest cases against allowing ANY exotics within our native<BR>>
ecosyetems on public lands, and along our highways?<BR>> <BR>> Shouldn't
we stop intentionally sowing those ecosystem-killing weeds onto<BR>> our
highways and public lands?<BR>> <BR>> Sincerely, Craig Dremann (650)
325-7333<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> PCA's Alien Plant
Working Group mailing list<BR>> </FONT><A
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
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face=Arial
size=2>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
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