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<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4>Well, I pretty much agree with Adair
again. It isn't easy to put the shoe on the other foot when someone says
something critical about something we've done, but it can be done. We can either
defend our bias or consider it an opportunity for getting new information and/or
a different angle on something. We don't have to get into making judgments about
whether or not someone's thinking was "flawed" or not; we can capitalize upon
the interaction and concentrate on the issue(s). It's not important whether or
not some particular someone made a mistake, but whether or not a mistake was
made. Some of my best insights have been the result of "mistakes." And I've
learned a lot by having my mistakes recognized and shared with me. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4>But the discussion I intended to stimulate
was not a philosophical one about people, but a technical one about plant
(ecosystem) conservation principles. Sure, it's all about human behavior,
but sorting that out is what mature intellectual enquiry is all about, eh?
Such principles and ideas can be understood, perhaps best, by specific examples.
By removing my ego I can concentrate better on the relevant specifics and
the principles. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4>The California case discussed is pretty
general; perhaps the practitioners did learn a lot more about the consequences
of large-scale removal as a <EM>sole</EM> solution; maybe they didn't. Perhaps
interplanting with selected indigenous species as a preparatory element of a
long-term strategy and a seedling/sapling removal program to exhaust
the "propagule bank," for example, might have been an alternative worth
considering. Perhaps a strategy of accepting the aliens as a minor component in
a more diverse ecosystem and concentrating more effort on that could be a more
effective allocation of scarce resources in the long term, especially with
species that are already so widespread and which generate so many propagules
that they cannot be entirely eliminated. A lot more would need to be considered
in each case, including such things as the potential for re-invasion from
"outside" sources. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4>But no matter what combination of factors,
philosophy, and action go into alien species management it is almost certain
that any approach can be improved. I certainly intend to go on listening and
watching and evaluating <EM>what</EM> is done and what results, but not who did
it and whether or not they are responsible for errors and thus should be
vilified or something. Personalities are just not relevant and nothing is to be
gained by finger-wagging. Blame and retribution are "human" all right, but they
are scientifically relevant beyond dealing with their
consequences. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Book Antiqua" size=4>WT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From: "Karen Adair" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:kadair@TNC.ORG"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kadair@TNC.ORG</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: "Wayne Tyson" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:landrest@cox.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>landrest@cox.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; <</FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 7:22
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: RE: [APWG] Ecosystem management and
restoration planning PlantsAlienspecies component Re: NEWS: Removing
speciesfromsub-Antarctic island 'causeddisaster'</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Your response reminds me of the knee jerk reaction I often have when
I<BR>think someone is not doing something the "right" way or in a way
"I<BR>know" they "should." This is just my flawed thinking and when
I<BR>recognize I'm thinking this way, I remind myself of Einstein's
quote:<BR>"No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a
single<BR>experiment can prove me wrong."<BR><BR>I've discovered the hard way
that nobody wants to hear what they<BR>"should" be doing or that they're doing
it "wrong." I instead have<BR>learned and try to focus on only what is in my
power. You don't have the<BR>power to change the way people think, but it is in
your power to provide<BR>useful information to support your belief. If someone
listens and adopts<BR>it, great. If not, that's just how it is.<BR><BR>Your last
paragraph illustrated my point about our flawed thinking. It's<BR>not that those
people didn't know about what light availability does to<BR>plants. It's that
somewhere along the way, their thinking was flawed and<BR>they didn't accurately
predict what would happen. Understanding why they<BR>didn't predict it or where
that flaw occurred hits the core of<BR>understanding how to be effective.
<BR><BR>I've also learned that if I live my life trying to find reassurance
in<BR>what other's are doing, I'm going to be upset. Nobody will
"do<BR>conservation" perfectly or the way "I think" it should be done.
Millions<BR>of mistakes have been made and that's part of what has gotten us
to<BR>where we are today, for better and worse. If I devote the time I
spend<BR>thinking about what others are doing or not doing instead to what I
can<BR>do, I'll be that much more effective in contributing to our common
goal.<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
</FONT><A href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
Wayne<BR>Tyson<BR>Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:32 PM<BR>To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Subject: Re: [APWG] Ecosystem management and restoration
planning<BR>PlantsAlienspecies component Re: NEWS: Removing
speciesfromsub-Antarctic<BR>island 'causeddisaster'<BR><BR>KA and PC:<BR><BR>Of
course I agree; however, I have seen many cases where individuals'<BR>and
organizations' actions in alien-bashing have left me with the<BR>impression that
their knowledge and skills were more limited than would<BR>be necessary for the
error avoidance procedures you mention, and were<BR>not only not followed, they
were strenuous objections. On one occasion,<BR>for example, when it was
suggested in a statewide alien plant<BR>orginazation's seminar that optimal
allocations of scarce resources be a<BR>consideration according to a priority
list based upon the procedures<BR>mentioned, including feasibility and
infeasibility as well as net<BR>effectiveness (I'm trying to make a long story
short here), there was<BR>outraged objection based on the "logic" that "we know
they are<BR>invasives, and that's all we need to know, etc., so forget all that
bs<BR>and just get on with the work. The seminar leaders apparently agreed
and<BR>emphasized technique "effectiveness" such as which herbicides to
use,<BR>how to use mechanical methods, etc. Suggestion that improving
ecosystem<BR>"health" or any kind of integrated analysis and proof of
restoration of<BR>ecosystem equilibrium was consider an obstacle to action
rather than a<BR>necessary or even useful part of a comprehensive and integrated
program<BR>that would result in true long-term effectiveness. The emphasis
seemed<BR>to be on gaining satisfaction only by the removal or killing of
aliens<BR>in the short-term. <BR>"Nature" was supposed to "take care of
everything else." The general<BR>impression given was that if one was not a
true-believer in the<BR>organization's precepts that vilification or worse would
be in store for<BR>the offenders.<BR><BR>I don't know the case to which you
allude, but it would seem that the<BR>California case might be indicative of
something along the lines just<BR>mentioned. Someone with even the most casual
knowledge of ecological<BR>processes should know--for starters-- that weeds
"like" light. The<BR>effects of the eradication efforts on such simple concepts
and soil<BR>water, nutrients, and nutrient sequestration might have been in
the<BR>realm of "needless" complexity.<BR><BR>Nonetheless, I am reassured that
somewhere all who are working on<BR>invasives do "understand that they are
working in ecosystems and what<BR>that means."<BR><BR>WT<BR><BR>----- Original
Message -----<BR>From: "Karen Adair" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:kadair@TNC.ORG"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kadair@TNC.ORG</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>><BR>To: "Wayne
Tyson" <</FONT><A href="mailto:landrest@cox.net"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>landrest@cox.net</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>; "Olivia Kwong"
<BR><</FONT><A href="mailto:plant@plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>plant@plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>;
<</FONT><A href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>><BR>Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:15 PM<BR>Subject: RE: [APWG]
Ecosystem management and restoration planning Plants<BR>Alienspecies component
Re: NEWS: Removing species fromsub-Antarctic<BR>island
'causeddisaster'<BR><BR><BR>I say a more correct title would have been "Flawed
thinking 'caused<BR>disaster' on sub-Antarctic island"<BR><BR>I don't remember
the specifics, but I know of at least one scenario<BR>where this has happened
with plants. I think an invasive tree species<BR>was successfully eradicated
somewhere in California only to promote the<BR>massive and swift invasion of
some herbaceous understory plant that was<BR>just waiting for such an event. And
these were highly intelligent people<BR>working on this.<BR><BR>I don't know
anyone working on invasives who doesn't understand that<BR>they are working in
ecosystems and what that means. This gets me to the<BR>opinion I've formed from
constant analysis of my own mistakes<BR>(fortunately never described as
"disasters") and successes which is that<BR>the "root of the root" <BR>in all
mistakes comes from our lack of understanding and acceptance that<BR>there will
always be flaws in how people think and decide. The human<BR>thought process is
imperfect and intellectual limitations are constant.<BR>We can't change those
facts, but knowing and thinking of it whenever we<BR>have to make a decision
should remind us to push away our assumptions<BR>and instead rely on and stick
to sound, strategic planning principles<BR>and the questions and information
that come as a result. That is the<BR>only way to mitigate the effects of our
emotions, perceptions, and<BR>ignorance in our thought processes. I can directly
link every mistake<BR>I've ever made to at least one of those three. I can link
every success<BR>to the fact that I kept my goal front and center at all
times.<BR><BR>"The lessons for conservation agencies globally is that
interventions<BR>should be comprehensive, and include risk assessments to
explicitly<BR>consider and plan for indirect effects, or face substantial
subsequent<BR>costs."<BR><BR>This quote is very logical and you would think that
everyone working to<BR>protect the environment would know this and do it
automatically<BR>especially with a project of this importance, scale, and
nature. To me,<BR>why they did not do it is the key component in this story and
what would<BR>be most helpful to know and learn from.<BR><BR><BR>Thanks.
Karen<BR><BR><BR>________________________________<BR><BR>From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
Wayne<BR>Tyson<BR>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:46 PM<BR>To: Olivia Kwong;
</FONT><A href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Subject: [APWG] Ecosystem management and restoration planning
Plants<BR>Alienspecies component Re: NEWS: Removing species
fromsub-Antarctic<BR>island 'causeddisaster'<BR><BR><BR>APWG:<BR><BR>While we
don't usually think of predator-prey relationships with plants,<BR>there can be
situations where alien plant removal procedures are<BR>detrimental to ecosystem
health. And the lesson here of understanding<BR>interspecies connections and
making predictions that are testable as<BR>theory, then test plots, then useful
procedures, beats the "find 'em,<BR>whack 'em, and forget 'em" approach that is
far too widely used<BR>(sometimes with good results,* but too often with
negative or neutral<BR>results). While consideration of the whole ecosystem
context may take<BR>more time, it can minimize error, expense, and wasted
or<BR>counterproductive effort.<BR><BR>WT<BR><BR>*Ecosystems are resilient--that
is, "forgiving." But correlations are<BR>not always reflective of causation, and
a shift in context can mean<BR>success in one case, failure in
another.<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Olivia Kwong"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:plant@plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>plant@plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
size=2><</FONT><A href="mailto:plant@plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:plant@plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial size=2>>
><BR>To: <</FONT><A href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2><</FONT><A
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
size=2>> ><BR>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:33 AM<BR>Subject: [APWG]
NEWS: Removing species from sub-Antarctic
island<BR>'causeddisaster'<BR><BR><BR>> About animal species, but it did
affect plants on the island.<BR>><BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/sc_afp/environmentbiodiversityinv"><FONT
face=Arial
size=2>http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/sc_afp/environmentbiodiversityinv</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> asiveaustralia_newsmlmmd <BR>> <</FONT><A
href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/sc_afp/environmentbiodiversityin"><FONT
face=Arial
size=2>http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/sc_afp/environmentbiodiversityin</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial size=2>> vasiveaustralia_newsmlmmd><BR>><BR>> Removing
species from sub-Antarctic island 'caused disaster'<BR>> Mon Jan 12, 12:34 pm
ET<BR>><BR>> PARIS (AFP) -- Efforts to remove an invasive species from a
<BR>> sub-Antarctic island that has been named a World Heritage site <BR>>
accidentally triggered an environmental catastrophe, a study to be<BR>published
on Tuesday says.<BR>><BR>> The eradication programme on Macquarie Island,
lying halfway between <BR>> Australia and Antarctica, is a cautionary tale
about the complex web <BR>> of ecosystems, its authors say.<BR>><BR>>
See the link above for the full article
text.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>
_______________________________________________<BR>> PCA's Alien Plant
Working Group mailing list <BR>> </FONT><A
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