<div> <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I must say I'm intrigued by the interesting philosophical turns this thread has taken.<br>
<br>
So here's my thing: We're all learning out there. We should expect to be surprised fairly often, like the cliche "expect the unexpected." Some of us likely will better anticipate than some of the rest of us, and that's great. But the learning is the main thing, and the adaptation to what we observe when we do things (or choose not to do things). Yes, the "adaptive management" paradigm where we think of every action or inaction as an experiment and strive to monitor and collect data to track what is happening, and then adapt or make course corrections to react to what we observe.<br>
<br>
I am somewhat encouraged that we have greater opportunities than ever before to learn collectively and share our knowledge and ideas, largely thanks to newer technology and also perhaps a rising collaborative spirit.<br>
<br>
The more case studies we all share, the faster we can learn and maybe get better at this adventure. Some things are going to be profoundly hard, some things are going to turn out to be amazingly simple, and a lot will fall in the middle. I want to choose to believe that we can get better at managing invasives and restoring ecosystems because it feels better than giving up. So yeah, I guess it's a way of chanting "Yes we can" out there. Cheers,<br>
<br>
Steve<br>
Volunteer, Arlington, Virginia<br>
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-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Karen Adair <kadair@TNC.ORG><br>
To: Wayne Tyson <landrest@cox.net>; apwg@lists.plantconservation.org<br>
Sent: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:22 am<br>
Subject: Re: [APWG] Ecosystem management and restoration planning PlantsAlienspecies component Re: NEWS: Removing speciesfromsub-Antarctic island 'causeddisaster'<br>
<br>
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<pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>Your response reminds me of the knee jerk reaction I often have when I<br>
think someone is not doing something the "right" way or in a way "I<br>
know" they "should." This is just my flawed thinking and when I<br>
recognize I'm thinking this way, I remind myself of Einstein's quote:<br>
"No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single<br>
experiment can prove me wrong."<br>
<br>
I've discovered the hard way that nobody wants to hear what they<br>
"should" be doing or that they're doing it "wrong." I instead have<br>
learned and try to focus on only what is in my power. You don't have the<br>
power to change the way people think, but it is in your power to provide<br>
useful information to support your belief. If someone listens and adopts<br>
it, great. If not, that's just how it is.<br>
<br>
Your last paragraph illustrated my point about our flawed thinking. It's<br>
not that those people didn't know about what light availability does to<br>
plants. It's that somewhere along the way, their thinking was flawed and<br>
they didn't accurately predict what would happen. Understanding why they<br>
didn't predict it or where that flaw occurred hits the core of<br>
understanding how to be effective. <br>
<br>
I've also learned that if I live my life trying to find reassurance in<br>
what other's are doing, I'm going to be upset. Nobody will "do<br>
conservation" perfectly or the way "I think" it should be done. Millions<br>
of mistakes have been made and that's part of what has gotten us to<br>
where we are today, for better and worse. If I devote the time I spend<br>
thinking about what others are doing or not doing instead to what I can<br>
do, I'll be that much more effective in contributing to our common goal.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
[<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org?">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wayne<br>
Tyson<br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 10:32 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [APWG] Ecosystem management and restoration planning<br>
PlantsAlienspecies component Re: NEWS: Removing speciesfromsub-Antarctic<br>
island 'causeddisaster'<br>
<br>
KA and PC:<br>
<br>
Of course I agree; however, I have seen many cases where individuals'<br>
and organizations' actions in alien-bashing have left me with the<br>
impression that their knowledge and skills were more limited than would<br>
be necessary for the error avoidance procedures you mention, and were<br>
not only not followed, they were strenuous objections. On one occasion,<br>
for example, when it was suggested in a statewide alien plant<br>
orginazation's seminar that optimal allocations of scarce resources be a<br>
consideration according to a priority list based upon the procedures<br>
mentioned, including feasibility and infeasibility as well as net<br>
effectiveness (I'm trying to make a long story short here), there was<br>
outraged objection based on the "logic" that "we know they are<br>
invasives, and that's all we need to know, etc., so forget all that bs<br>
and just get on with the work. The seminar leaders apparently agreed and<br>
emphasized technique "effectiveness" such as which herbicides to use,<br>
how to use mechanical methods, etc. Suggestion that improving ecosystem<br>
"health" or any kind of integrated analysis and proof of restoration of<br>
ecosystem equilibrium was consider an obstacle to action rather than a<br>
necessary or even useful part of a comprehensive and integrated program<br>
that would result in true long-term effectiveness. The emphasis seemed<br>
to be on gaining satisfaction only by the removal or killing of aliens<br>
in the short-term. <br>
"Nature" was supposed to "take care of everything else." The general<br>
impression given was that if one was not a true-believer in the<br>
organization's precepts that vilification or worse would be in store for<br>
the offenders.<br>
<br>
I don't know the case to which you allude, but it would seem that the<br>
California case might be indicative of something along the lines just<br>
mentioned. Someone with even the most casual knowledge of ecological<br>
processes should know--for starters-- that weeds "like" light. The<br>
effects of the eradication efforts on such simple concepts and soil<br>
water, nutrients, and nutrient sequestration might have been in the<br>
realm of "needless" complexity.<br>
<br>
Nonetheless, I am reassured that somewhere all who are working on<br>
invasives do "understand that they are working in ecosystems and what<br>
that means."<br>
<br>
WT<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Karen Adair" <<a href="mailto:kadair@TNC.ORG">kadair@TNC.ORG</a>><br>
To: "Wayne Tyson" <<a href="mailto:landrest@cox.net">landrest@cox.net</a>>; "Olivia Kwong" <br>
<<a href="mailto:plant@plantconservation.org">plant@plantconservation.org</a>>; <<a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>><br>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 6:15 PM<br>
Subject: RE: [APWG] Ecosystem management and restoration planning Plants<br>
Alienspecies component Re: NEWS: Removing species fromsub-Antarctic<br>
island 'causeddisaster'<br>
<br>
<br>
I say a more correct title would have been "Flawed thinking 'caused<br>
disaster' on sub-Antarctic island"<br>
<br>
I don't remember the specifics, but I know of at least one scenario<br>
where this has happened with plants. I think an invasive tree species<br>
was successfully eradicated somewhere in California only to promote the<br>
massive and swift invasion of some herbaceous understory plant that was<br>
just waiting for such an event. And these were highly intelligent people<br>
working on this.<br>
<br>
I don't know anyone working on invasives who doesn't understand that<br>
they are working in ecosystems and what that means. This gets me to the<br>
opinion I've formed from constant analysis of my own mistakes<br>
(fortunately never described as "disasters") and successes which is that<br>
the "root of the root" <br>
in all mistakes comes from our lack of understanding and acceptance that<br>
there will always be flaws in how people think and decide. The human<br>
thought process is imperfect and intellectual limitations are constant.<br>
We can't change those facts, but knowing and thinking of it whenever we<br>
have to make a decision should remind us to push away our assumptions<br>
and instead rely on and stick to sound, strategic planning principles<br>
and the questions and information that come as a result. That is the<br>
only way to mitigate the effects of our emotions, perceptions, and<br>
ignorance in our thought processes. I can directly link every mistake<br>
I've ever made to at least one of those three. I can link every success<br>
to the fact that I kept my goal front and center at all times.<br>
<br>
"The lessons for conservation agencies globally is that interventions<br>
should be comprehensive, and include risk assessments to explicitly<br>
consider and plan for indirect effects, or face substantial subsequent<br>
costs."<br>
<br>
This quote is very logical and you would think that everyone working to<br>
protect the environment would know this and do it automatically<br>
especially with a project of this importance, scale, and nature. To me,<br>
why they did not do it is the key component in this story and what would<br>
be most helpful to know and learn from.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks. Karen<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
[<a href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org?">mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</a>] On Behalf Of Wayne<br>
Tyson<br>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:46 PM<br>
To: Olivia Kwong; <a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
Subject: [APWG] Ecosystem management and restoration planning Plants<br>
Alienspecies component Re: NEWS: Removing species fromsub-Antarctic<br>
island 'causeddisaster'<br>
<br>
<br>
APWG:<br>
<br>
While we don't usually think of predator-prey relationships with plants,<br>
there can be situations where alien plant removal procedures are<br>
detrimental to ecosystem health. And the lesson here of understanding<br>
interspecies connections and making predictions that are testable as<br>
theory, then test plots, then useful procedures, beats the "find 'em,<br>
whack 'em, and forget 'em" approach that is far too widely used<br>
(sometimes with good results,* but too often with negative or neutral<br>
results). While consideration of the whole ecosystem context may take<br>
more time, it can minimize error, expense, and wasted or<br>
counterproductive effort.<br>
<br>
WT<br>
<br>
*Ecosystems are resilient--that is, "forgiving." But correlations are<br>
not always reflective of causation, and a shift in context can mean<br>
success in one case, failure in another.<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Olivia Kwong" <<a href="mailto:plant@plantconservation.org">plant@plantconservation.org</a><br>
<<a href="mailto:plant@plantconservation.org?">mailto:plant@plantconservation.org</a>> ><br>
To: <<a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a><br>
<<a href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org?">mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</a>> ><br>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 7:33 AM<br>
Subject: [APWG] NEWS: Removing species from sub-Antarctic island<br>
'causeddisaster'<br>
<br>
<br>
> About animal species, but it did affect plants on the island.<br>
><br>
> <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/sc_afp/environmentbiodiversityinv" target="_blank">http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/sc_afp/environmentbiodiversityinv</a><br>
> asiveaustralia_newsmlmmd <br>
> <<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/sc_afp/environmentbiodiversityin" target="_blank">http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/sc_afp/environmentbiodiversityin</a><br>
> vasiveaustralia_newsmlmmd><br>
><br>
> Removing species from sub-Antarctic island 'caused disaster'<br>
> Mon Jan 12, 12:34 pm ET<br>
><br>
> PARIS (AFP) -- Efforts to remove an invasive species from a <br>
> sub-Antarctic island that has been named a World Heritage site <br>
> accidentally triggered an environmental catastrophe, a study to be<br>
published on Tuesday says.<br>
><br>
> The eradication programme on Macquarie Island, lying halfway between <br>
> Australia and Antarctica, is a cautionary tale about the complex web <br>
> of ecosystems, its authors say.<br>
><br>
> See the link above for the full article text.<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list <br>
> <a href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org">APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</a> <br>
> <<a href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org?">mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</a>><br>
> <a href="http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantco" target="_blank">http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantco</a><br>
> nservation.org <br>
> <<a href="http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantc" target="_blank">http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantc</a><br>
> onservation.org><br>
><br>
> Disclaimer<br>
> Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the <br>
> opinion of the individual posting the message.<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
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