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<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2> I beg to
differ.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2> To argue that we must
harmonize with plants begs the question that we are separate from plants, i.e.,
not just a part of a natural order that includes us within a system. My hope is
that humans realize, scientifically and ethically, that they not distinct from,
but rather a part of, nature.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2> This conversation
begun by Craig is fascinating to me as I'm certain it is to others following it.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Grace Lilly</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=genafleming@gmail.com href="mailto:genafleming@gmail.com">Gena
Fleming</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=dchang@co.santa-barbara.ca.us
href="mailto:dchang@co.santa-barbara.ca.us">Chang, David</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=Craig@astreet.com
href="mailto:Craig@astreet.com">Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company</A>
; <A title=apwg@lists.plantconservation.org
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org">apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 05, 2008 12:53
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [APWG]
Altering is too kind, destroy not strong enough</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dear All:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We absolutely must have a sense of values, of "good" and
"bad". The objectivity of science is a deeply ingrained
myth. Yes, modern day science has thrown off the shackles of religious
doctrine. But in the vacuum created by undeclared beliefs, other motives
and vested interests have been happy to grab the rudder and guide
the science boat through selective, directional funding of scientific
research.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This discussion is going round and round and will continue to go round
until we find a way to articulate what our underlying presumptions and values
are. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do we really think that divesting ourselves of values is going to lead to
a better world? The path of objectivity is not to deny our value-laden
beliefs: it is to declare them openly and thereby make them open to
scrutiny, discussion, and refinement. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Such is the basic principle underlying any philosophic discussion of
integrity. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When premises are not up for discussion, we leave philosophy and enter
theology.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When premises are consistently claimed to be non-existent, we have
theology mixed with mental illness. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I do not believe the scientists in this discussion are objective.
At least I hope they're not! </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For me, the question is not "Which plant/organism is the
enemy?" Rather, the question is ---- how can we
harmonize human interaction with plants for the sake of agriculture and other
human needs with the inherent biologic resilience, integrity, wisdom and
safeguards offered by wildness?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>best regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gena</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 04/03/2008, <B class=gmail_sendername>Chang,
David</B> <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:dchang@co.santa-barbara.ca.us"
target=_blank>dchang@co.santa-barbara.ca.us</A>>
</SPAN><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bob:</SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV lang=EN-US link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I concede that
neutral language is more scientific and objective, but did we catch you in a
Freudian slip? </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Your statement,
"Although this article is not good news," contradicts your usual
stance. Are we, conservation and biodiversity freaks, getting through
to you?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">A partial rebuttal
to your argument below is that humans aren't the only judges of ecosystems.
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">David</SPAN></FONT></P><SPAN>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A> [mailto:<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org</A>] On Behalf Of Bob
Beyfuss<BR>Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:22 PM<BR>To: Craig Dremann -
Redwood City Seed Company; <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:apwg@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>apwg@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR>Subject: Re: [APWG]
Altering is too kind, destroy not strong enough</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi Craig and
all,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Replaced is the
correct term.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Destroying implies
a value judgment that the invasive plants are "bad" and </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">the plants that
they are replacing are "good". In science there are no </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">"good" or "bad"
plants as there are no "good" or "bad" ecosystems. Nature </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">lovers may not like
or may not find attractive the ecosystems that occur, </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">for example, in a
vacant lot in an inner city but that does not make those </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ecosystems "bad'.
There are particular ecosystems that humans want to </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">protect for many
reasons and that is fine but these are human value </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">judgements. If a
scientist studying any particular ecosystem did not know </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ahead of time that
it was dominated by invasive, exotic plants, it would be </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">impossible for he
or she to determine if the plants present on site were </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">native or exotic
based on the biology of the plants and their </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">interactions.
Let me cite a real life example to make my point. A few </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">weeks ago a client
called me looking for information on how to eradicate </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">invasive, Asiatic
bittersweet that she had found on her property. I asked
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">her if she was
certain that it was the Asiatic variety and not the native
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">bittersweet. She
replied that she no idea how to distinguish them. I asked </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">her if it turned
out that the bittersweet on her property were the native </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">variety, would she
still want to eradicate it? Her answer was "of course </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">not". Her only
criteria for wanting to eradicate the plant was the </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">supposition that it
was exotic. In my mind that is not a good reason to </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">eradicate anything,
especaill\y when there are no guarantees that the </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">plants eradicated
will not be replaced by something even less desirable. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">When science is
reduced to name calling to provoke an emotional response,
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">it is not
science.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bob</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">At 03:13 PM
3/4/2008, Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Dear
All,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>I am very
surpised to read the discussions on the semantics, of what
to</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>call exotic
plants and their impacts on local native ecosystems.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>I can only
speak from the California perspective, where 99% of the</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>understory of
our native ecosystems between 2 and 2,000 feet elevation,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>have been
replaced by over 1,000 species of exotic plants.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>What do you
call that effect, using words that express such a complete</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>extermination
of native ecosystems, within only 150 years or less?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Ecosystem
genocide? Permanent native vegetation extinction,
continuing</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>through
geologic time?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Sincerely, Craig Dremann (650)
325-7333</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>_______________________________________________</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>PCA's Alien
Plant Working Group mailing list</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org</A></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Disclaimer</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>Any requests,
advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>opinion of the
individual posting the message.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bob Beyfuss
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> Although this
article is not good news, it is refreshing for me to see </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> the term
"altering" instead of "destroying" "devastating" and other
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> pejorative
terms.</SPAN></FONT></P><SPAN>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_______________________________________________</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PCA's Alien Plant
Working Group mailing list</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org</A></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Disclaimer
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Any requests,
advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the opinion of the
individual posting the message.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's
Alien Plant Working Group mailing list<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:APWG@lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org</A><BR><BR>Disclaimer<BR>Any
requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the opinion of
the individual posting the message.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Gena Fleming, MS, LAc<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.plantbyplant.com/" target=_blank>www.plantbyplant.com</A>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>PCA's Alien
Plant Working Group mailing
list<BR>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org<BR>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org<BR><BR>Disclaimer
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