<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;}
p.MsoEnvelopeAddress, li.MsoEnvelopeAddress, div.MsoEnvelopeAddress
{margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:2.0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-element:frame;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Arial;
font-variant:small-caps;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-compose;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 81.0pt 1.0in 81.0pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Bob:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I
concede that neutral language is more scientific and objective, but did we
catch you in a Freudian slip? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Your
statement, "Although this article is not good news," contradicts your
usual stance. Are we, conservation and biodiversity freaks, getting
through to you?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>A partial
rebuttal to your argument below is that humans aren’t the only judges of
ecosystems. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>David<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces@lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Bob Beyfuss<br>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:22 PM<br>
To: Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company; apwg@lists.plantconservation.org<br>
Subject: Re: [APWG] Altering is too kind, destroy not strong enough<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Hi
Craig and all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Replaced
is the correct term.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Destroying
implies a value judgment that the invasive plants are "bad" and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the
plants that they are replacing are "good". In science there are no <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"good"
or "bad" plants as there are no "good" or "bad"
ecosystems. Nature <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>lovers
may not like or may not find attractive the ecosystems that occur, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>for
example, in a vacant lot in an inner city but that does not make those <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ecosystems
"bad'. There are particular ecosystems that humans want to <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>protect
for many reasons and that is fine but these are human value <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>judgements.
If a scientist studying any particular ecosystem did not know <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>ahead
of time that it was dominated by invasive, exotic plants, it would be <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>impossible
for he or she to determine if the plants present on site were <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>native
or exotic based on the biology of the plants and their <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>interactions.
Let me cite a real life example to make my point. A few <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>weeks
ago a client called me looking for information on how to eradicate <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>invasive,
Asiatic bittersweet that she had found on her property. I asked <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>her
if she was certain that it was the Asiatic variety and not the native <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>bittersweet.
She replied that she no idea how to distinguish them. I asked <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>her
if it turned out that the bittersweet on her property were the native <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>variety,
would she still want to eradicate it? Her answer was "of course <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>not".
Her only criteria for wanting to eradicate the plant was the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>supposition
that it was exotic. In my mind that is not a good reason to <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>eradicate
anything, especaill\y when there are no guarantees that the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>plants
eradicated will not be replaced by something even less desirable. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>When
science is reduced to name calling to provoke an emotional response, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>it
is not science.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Bob<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>At
03:13 PM 3/4/2008, Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>Dear
All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>I
am very surpised to read the discussions on the semantics, of what to<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>call
exotic plants and their impacts on local native ecosystems.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>I
can only speak from the California perspective, where 99% of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>understory
of our native ecosystems between 2 and 2,000 feet elevation,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>have
been replaced by over 1,000 species of exotic plants.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>What
do you call that effect, using words that express such a complete<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>extermination
of native ecosystems, within only 150 years or less?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>Ecosystem
genocide? Permanent native vegetation extinction, continuing<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>through
geologic time?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>Sincerely,
Craig Dremann (650) 325-7333<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>PCA's
Alien Plant Working Group mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>Disclaimer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>Any
requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>>opinion
of the individual posting the message.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Bob Beyfuss wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>> Although this article is not good news, it is
refreshing for me to see <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>> the term "altering" instead of
"destroying" "devastating" and other <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>> pejorative terms.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>PCA's
Alien Plant Working Group mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>APWG@lists.plantconservation.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconservation.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Disclaimer
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Any
requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the opinion of
the individual posting the message.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>