[APWG] [PCA] Dandelion follow-up & Phragmites

Sat Sep 1 06:51:48 CDT 2012

Mesodon clarki nantahala is not a hybrid. In unnatural, disturbed,
conditions a few hybrids of Mesodon clarki and Mesodon nantahala were found
elsewhere, far from the location of Mesodon clarki nantahala.  We checked
the old museum records and agreed that the hybrids were only recent and not
natural. Taxonomic splitters would say we have separate species, lumpers
would not. The use of a trinomial satisfied both the splitters and lumpers
in North Carolina because old museum records indiated separate species.

Botanists tell me that for about one in five plants there is legitimate
debate between splitters and lumpers. Taxonomy of fresh water crayfish in
Eastern North America was led for decades by a splitter. The trinomial is a
win-win compromise between splitters and lumpers. 

Marc Imlay, PhD,
Conservation biologist, Park Ranger Office
(301) 442-5657 cell
 ialm at erols.com
Natural and Historical Resources Division
The  Maryland-National   Capital   Park  and Planning Commission
 <http://www.pgparks.com/> www.pgparks.com

  _____  

From: Marc Imlay [mailto:ialm at erols.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 9:22 PM
To: 'Randall, John L'; 'James Trager'; 'Pyle, Charlotte - NRCS, Tolland,CT';
'Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov'; 'apwg at lists.plantconservation.org';
'native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org'
Subject: RE: [APWG] [PCA] Dandelion follow-up & Phragmites

As a malacologist I have used trinomials. We check the old museum records
and when it is clear that the hybrids are only recent, as with Mesodon
clarki nantahala, the trinomial is considered a valid component of
biological diversity. 

http://www.amazon.com/Recovery-noonday-Mesodon-clarki-nantahala/dp/B00416BVE
I

*	1994 IUCN red list of threatened animals Gland, Switzerland: IUCN,
1993 url <http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/title/44776>  p. 231
<http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/31035868> . 

*	The distributions of the native land mollusks of the Eastern United
States / Leslie Hubricht. 24 1985 Chicago: Field Museum of Natural History,
1985. url <http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/title/3329>  p. 181
<http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/2843289> , p. 44
<http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/page/2843151> .

Marc Imlay, PhD,
Conservation biologist, Park Ranger Office
(301) 442-5657 cell
 ialm at erols.com
Natural and Historical Resources Division
The  Maryland-National   Capital   Park  and Planning Commission
 <http://www.pgparks.com> www.pgparks.com

Patera clarki nantahala

>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_clarki_nantahala#mw-head> , search
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_clarki_nantahala#p-search>  

Patera clarki nantahala	
 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Patera_clarki_nantahala.jpg> 	
Patera clarki nantahala	
Conservation  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_status> status	

Not evaluated (IUCN 3.1 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Red_List> )
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_clarki_nantahala#cite_note-0> [1]
Scientific  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_classification>
classification	
Kingdom:	 Animalia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animalia> 	
Phylum:	 Mollusca <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mollusca> 	
Class:	 Gastropoda <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastropoda> 	
(unranked):	 clade Heterobranchia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterobranchia> 
clade Euthyneura <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyneura> 
clade Panpulmonata <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpulmonata> 
clade Eupulmonata <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eupulmonata> 
clade Stylommatophora <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stylommatophora> 
informal group Sigmurethra <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmurethra> 	
Superfamily:	 Helicoidea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicoidea> 	
Family:	 Polygyridae <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygyridae> 	
Genus:	 Patera <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_(genus)> 	
Species:	 Patera  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_clarki> clarki
(I. Lea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Lea> , 1858)	
Subspecies:	 Patera clarki nantahala
(Clench <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Clench>  & Banks
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilbert_S._Banks&action=edit&redl
ink=1> , 1932)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_clarki_nantahala#cite_note-Clench-1>
[2]	
Synonyms <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synonym_(taxonomy)> 	

Polygyra (Triodopsis) nantahala
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_clarki_nantahala#cite_note-Clench-1>
[2]
Mesodon clarki nantahala

The name "nantahala" is a Cherokee
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_language>  word which means noonday
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noon> . This subspecies was given this name
because the snail lives in a deep gorge where the sunshine does not reach
the ground until the middle of the day.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_clarki_nantahala#cite_note-1978_Final-2
> [3]

Its distribution is restricted to part of the Nantahala Gorge
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantahala_Gorge> , in the Appalachian
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Mountains> Mountains, in Swain
County,  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swain_County,_North_Carolina> North
Carolina.

The noonday globe snail is known from a small area: approximately 2 miles of
high cliffs <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff>  within the Nantahala
Gorge, on the east side of the gorge.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patera_clarki_nantahala#cite_note-Guide-3> [4]

The noonday globe snail was probably never widely distributed. Its preferred
habitat of steep wet slopes with calcareous rocks is rare in western North
Carolina. However, the subspecies was probably more widely distributed
within the gorge <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorge>  before the gorge
itself was altered for a railroad <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad>
and a highway <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway>  U.S. Route 19
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_19> . Both of these projects
altered the forest community
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_(ecology)>  along the river. The
associated loss of the forest canopy
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopy_(forest)>  allowed more sunlight to
penetrate the gorge, and dried out the lower slope. This habitat
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitat>  alteration allowed such non-native
plants as Kudzu <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu>  and Japanese
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_honeysuckle> honeysuckle to invade
some roadside areas, and changed the area's natural plant and animal
community.

In an attempt to secure the snail's continued existence, the United
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Fish_and_Wildlife_Service>
States Fish and Wildlife Service added it as a threatened subspecies, to the
Federal
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Fish_and_Wildlife_Service_list_o
f_endangered_species> Endangered and Threatened Species List on July 3, 1978

  _____  

From: apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of Randall, John
L
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:11 AM
To: James Trager; Pyle, Charlotte - NRCS, Tolland,CT;
Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov; apwg at lists.plantconservation.org;
native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: Re: [APWG] [PCA] Dandelion follow-up & Phragmites

James: The biological species concept will not be used for plants -
certainly in our lifetimes and probably not ever. For example: all Baptisia,
Echinacea, and Sarracenia taxa would each be considered individual species!
Johnny

Johnny Randall, Ph.D.

Director of Conservation Programs

North Carolina Botanical Garden

CB 3375

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Chapel Hill NC 27599

ncbg.unc.edu

(W) 919-962-0522

(C) 919-923-0100

From: native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
James Trager
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:55 PM
To: Pyle, Charlotte - NRCS, Tolland, CT; Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov;
apwg at lists.plantconservation.org; native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: Re: [PCA] Dandelion follow-up & Phragmites

I will make the following comment from the perspective of one who works in
both the plant and animal systematics fields:

For now, we’re stuck with them, but really, the plant systematists need to
make an effort to rid the system of these trinomials (both subspecies and
varieties, for goodness sakes!), by elevating entities such as the Taraxacum
subspecies to species (also Phragmites, Achillea, etc.) as warranted, and
synonymizing them where not warranted (no way reliably to discern them).
These populations behave genetically like what zoosystematists call
biological species (á la Ernst Mayr), a concept that has the appearance of
somehow never having caught on with botanists. One can certainly point to
all sorts of difficult cases and imperfections in the use of the biological
species paradigm, but I still think it would be an improvement over the mess
of infraspecific taxa that now so heavily burdens plant taxonomy. The
botanists need to “get with the program”. 

Now as for defining “native” and “non-native” – not something I wish to rant
about at the moment!

James C. Trager, Ph. D.

Biologist - Naturalist

Shaw Nature Reserve

P.O. Box 38

Gray Summit MO 63039

636-451-3512 ext. 6002

  _____  

From: native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
Pyle, Charlotte - NRCS, Tolland, CT
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:13 PM
To: Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov; apwg at lists.plantconservation.org;
native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: Re: [PCA] Dandelion follow-up & Phragmites

One thing about the USDA PLANTS database is that you have to understand how
its data layers work.

For example, if you go to Taraxacum officinale (the genus and species for
Common Dandelion), you will get a distribution map for the genus/species.
Note that at the top of the screen there is an indication of the Native
Status.

  At the genus/species level, this taxa (Taraxacum officinale) is both
Native and Introduced in the Lower 48 states of the USA (L48) because one
subspecies (ceratophorum) is native and the other (officinale) is
introduced.

   http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=TAOF

  Below the map of the genus/species, there are separate clickable maps of
each subspecies.  Using scientific names, these maps and associated
information clear up any confusion as to which taxa is native and which is
introduced in the Lower 48 area.**

          However, there is a different problem which is that PLANTS does
not have unique Common Names for each taxa, so both the genus/species and
its two subspecies are all referred to as "Common Dandelion".

**************************

I believe there is a somewhat similar issue with the question of the
nativity/invasiveness of Phragmites australis in the sense that the native
Phragmites is a subspecies of a genus/species (Phragmites australis).

  Phragmites australis subspecies australis is not native in the USA.

It is unfortunate that a common botanical convention is to use just the
binomial (genus/species name) when referring to the "typical" subspecies
(the one whose subspecies name is the same name as the species).  Thus we
say P. australis is invasive when we actually mean P. australis ssp.
australis is invasive.

  And this gets me to the issue that it is important to use trinomials
(genus/species plus subspecies or variety) when talking about plants that
have subspecies or varieties even if you only have one of the subspecies in
your own area.  (Incidentally, this concept also is important when making
lists of native plants that serve as alternatives to invasive species.!)

  Here is a reference for Phragmites that explains the changes in the ways
people have thought about Phragmites australis.  It also gives a key to the
subspecies:  http://herbarium.usu.edu/treatments/Phragmites.htm

************

** Finally, unrelated to the present issue, but something I will mention
anyway:  there is a different mapping issue with PLANTS which relates to the
overlaying of (1) the dataset for Native vs Introduced which is done in huge
polygons (L48 = the entire 48 states of the continental USA as one polygon)
on top of the (2)  the state by state distribution map of presence/absence
of a particular species.      

  Currently, if you look at Blue Spruce (Picea pungens), it is characterized
as Native in L48 (by virtue of its being native in the Rocky Mountain
states).  It is mapped as present in quite a few states.  

http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch

  When you hit the View Native Status button below the state by state
distribution map, the database overlays the nativity status map (Native in
L48; Introduced in Canada) on top.  This gives you a map that makes it
"appear" that Blue Spruce is native in Massachusetts whereas what PLANTS is
trying to show is that it native (somewhere) in the Lower 48 states, but
introduced everywhere it is found in Canada!

I have heard  that PLANTS database hopes to be getting the funding to fix
this glitch.

Cheers,

  Charlotte Pyle

Charlotte Pyle, PhD
Landscape Ecologist
USDA-Natural Resources Conservation Service
344 Merrow Road
Tolland, CT  06084

phone:  (860) 871-4066
fax: (860) 871-4054
email:  charlotte.pyle at ct.usda.gov
www.ct.nrcs.usda.gov/plants.html

NOTICE to Hispanic or Women Farmers: If you believe USDA improperly denied
you farm loan benefits during 1981-2000, visit farmerclaims.gov
<http://www.farmerclaims.gov/> .

From: native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org
[mailto:native-plants-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org] On Behalf Of
Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:57 AM
To: apwg at lists.plantconservation.org;
native-plants at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: [PCA] Dandelion follow-up

My last post prompted another listserver to send me a correction to the
dandelion comment (please see below). Thank you, Richard. I stand corrected.
Perhaps Richard could also let us know how these maps are attributed (I
forgot to ask). 

Meanwhile, I'll take the opportunity to say that, despite their bad rep in
some circles, dandelions also have a long-standing reputation as an
important part of the herbalists medicine cabinet. But that's a discussion
for the Medicinal Plant Working Group list! 

Thanks, Patricia 

Patricia S. De Angelis, Ph.D.
Botanist, Division of Scientific Authority-US Fish & Wildlife
Service-International Affairs
Chair, Medicinal Plant Working Group-Plant Conservation Alliance
4401 N. Fairfax Dr., Suite 110
Arlington, VA  22203
703-358-1708 x1753
FAX: 703-358-2276

Promoting sustainable use and conservation of our native medicinal plants. 
<www.nps.gov/plants/medicinal>

Follow International Affairs
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----- Forwarded by Patricia De Angelis/ARL/R9/FWS/DOI on 08/29/2012 11:49 AM
----- 

"Richard Old" <rold at pullman.com> 

08/29/2012 11:38 AM 

To

<Patricia_DeAngelis at fws.gov> 

cc

Subject

FW: Images

Patricia: 
The link which you sent to the lists reflects the typically outdated status
of the USDA PLANTS site.   
What is referred to there as Taraxacum officinale ssp. ceratophorum is now
considered a separate native species (T. ceratophorum).   
Please note the attached distribution maps. 
Richard 

Richard R. Old, Ph.D. 
XID Services, Inc. 
 <http://www.xidservices.com/> www.xidservices.com 
800 872 2943 
509 332 2989 

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