[APWG] APWG Digest, Vol 71, Issue 15, weed densities
Kim Yousey
rjyousey at att.net
Fri Aug 14 10:25:36 CDT 2009
Hello, WT and Craig and those interested,
I for one think this is important, successful strategies = win-win, $ :
effort. Point me to your test plots.
Kim Yousey
-----Original Message-----
From: apwg-bounces at lists.plantconservation.org
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Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 10:48 AM
To: apwg at lists.plantconservation.org
Subject: APWG Digest, Vol 71, Issue 15
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Today's Topics:
1. Fw: 09 NAWMA Conference (Jil_Swearingen at nps.gov)
2. Ecosystem restoration and alien species eradication Re:
Performance standards to get weed-free and 100% native (Wayne Tyson)
3. Fw: Ecosystem restoration and alien species eradication Re:
Performance standards to get weed-free and 100% native (Anita Bower)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 13:56:24 -0400
From: Jil_Swearingen at nps.gov
Subject: [APWG] Fw: 09 NAWMA Conference
To: apwg at lists.plantconservation.org
Message-ID:
<OF5644CF12.80AA17B4-ON85257611.0062871B-85257611.00628C40 at nps.gov>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
----- Forwarded by Jil Swearingen/NCR/NPS on 08/13/2009 01:56 PM -----
"Robert Schultz"
<roberts at hallcoun
tyne.gov> To
<CWMA at msu.oscs.montana.edu>
08/13/2009 12:56 cc
PM
Subject
09 NAWMA Conference
2009 North American Weed Management Association Annual Conference and Trade
Show September 21-24, 2009 in Kearney, Nebraska
Early Registration Deadline has been extended until September 1st .
Don?t miss the opportunity for a great conference and see what Nebraska has
been accomplishing.
Check out the website at www.nawma.org for more details and registration
form.
Hope to see you in Kearney!!!
Rob Schultz
Hall County Weed Control Superintendent
NWCA President
2807 W. 2nd St.
Grand Island, NE 68803
Office: 308.385.5097
Cell: 308.380.2099
Fax: 308.385.5121
e-mail address: roberts at hallcountyne.gov
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 22:45:41 -0700
From: "Wayne Tyson" <landrest at cox.net>
Subject: [APWG] Ecosystem restoration and alien species eradication
Re: Performance standards to get weed-free and 100% native
To: <apwg at lists.plantconservation.org>
Message-ID: <00ee01ca1ca2$75a99c50$6401a8c0 at wayneb2f97d881>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Craig and all:
It appears that other subscribers aren't interested in this topic, but I
think we should continue it anyway, in the hopes that a few will get
interested, or that it will stimulate "lurkers" to think about it. While I'm
greatly looking forward to a possible visit to your project and discussing
the particulars with you in depth, I suggest that we owe it to the
subscribers of this list to iron out the issues that each of us has raised
one at a time. I'll be interested in your ideas about this and those of any
who care to join in.
Let's again revisit the issue of the importance of well-coordinated
restoration with eradication programs. You and I agree on this, I believe,
but perhaps there are others on the list who think that restoration is
unnecessary or irrelevant.
I hope that all who may not agree will post their ideas on this particular
subject and that the discussion sticks to this one subject before moving on
to digressions. I am very interested in where subscribers to this list stand
on this subject. The only way I know to interpret their silence is to
presume that they agree and see no need for discussion or that they don't
want to discuss it for other reasons.
WT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed Company" <Craig at astreet.com>
To: <apwg at lists.plantconservation.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 12:23 PM
Subject: [APWG] Performance standards to get weed-free and 100% native
Dear Wayne and All,
I want to start my reply, to wax poetically about how nice walking through
a restored, a weed-free North American native ecosystem can be.
It is like visiting the Promised Land, a fairy tale land that people talk
about at annual wildland weed meetings--what would an area look like, that
they have been weeding for years or decades, if it was not only weed free,
but was 100% covered with the original pre-Columbian native ecosystem
understory?
The Shaw property is like a flawless 74-acre diamond, currently set in an
unending ocean of almost a 100% solid exotic understory of over 1,000
species of weeds, going 250 miles to the North, 200 miles to the East and
600 miles to the South, to the Mexican border.
===============
Wayne wrote:
Mowing before seed-set is a reasonably good practice in some contexts, it
may not always be practical (e.g., 2:1 slopes, etc.).
Reply: 99% of lower elevation California is gentle slopes to fairly flat,
so the level to gently sloping wildlands should be converted first, while
there are still viable native seeds in the soil seedbank.
If the native seeds in the soil seed bank are already 35-100 years old, my
big concern is we will not get started in this conversion back to 100%
native cover process, in time to take advantage of the viable native seeds
that are lying dormant underneath the exotics, before they lose their
viability.
The clock is ticking for these native seeds lying dormant in the soil
seedbanks, waiting for us to pay attention to them within our and their
lifetimes, otherwise their lives will be lost forever.
===============
Wayne wrote: Once a site has been dominated by weeds for a year or two,
not to mention decades or centuries, there is a considerable buildup of
dormant seeds in the soil's seed bank. Mowing can't get those, nor can it
get all of the standing crop.
Reply: Mowing absolutely must to get the standing crop of weed seeds
before they ripen, for that year, and contrary to popular belief, you do
not have to be concerned about the dormant weed seeds in the soil.
What has been happening over the last decades or hundred years, is that
the percentage cover of the weeds tipped the balance, where the weed
densities were able to use allelopathic chemicals to suppress the
germination of the dormant native seeds in the soil.
See Journal of Chemical Ecology, especially Dr. Liu's 1994 and 1995 papers
on a method to study plant-produced allelopathic chemicals as an
independent plant suppression system, separate from competition for water,
nutrients, sunlight, etc..
Where the concern should be focused, instead of the weed seed bank, is
managing and resurrecting the native seeds in the soil seedbank, and once
you cross a percentage native cover threshold, the natives will start
permanently suppressing the weeds still viable in the soil.
Those weed seeds will remain alive underneath the natives for a long, long
time, but once you get the right densities or the right local natives in
place, the natives will suppress the weed seeds from every germinating
again, the weed seeds will eventually die in the soil. Weeds Rest in
Peace.
=================
Wayne wrote:
Then there's the issue of the thatch/chaff, post-mowing regrowth, and
other specifics that raise questions.
Reply: Thatch is not a problem. Fortunately most of the weeds that cover
California are annuals, but for the perennials that might regrow, is
where a little brushing of the cut surfaces with Roundup might be
necessary, like Pampas grass, Harding grass, etc.
=================
Wayne wrote:
Not only that, but the vital importance that such treated sites must
self-sustain rather than be continuously treated for eternity.
Reply: That is why for the Performance Standards that I am recommending
for restoration of California perennial native grassland habitats, on my
web page at http://www.ecoseeds.com/standards.html is that you need to
make the conversion from exotic cover, back to at least 95% native cover,
within 90 days or less, with no future maintenance.
If you have to weed after the 90th day, you need to do your small scale
test plots over, until you get the right native cover that stops the weeds
cold. It is like a poker game, you have to lay down your Royal Flush of
local natives, to beat the local weeds. You do not want to have to keep
playing hand after hand of weeding-poker to eternity.
The only maintenance that might have to be done after the 90th day, is to
add more local native species to increase the diversity, and to fill in
gaps where native plant understory families have been catastrophically
exterminated, like California and the West.
Sincerely, Craig Dremann (650) 325-7333
_______________________________________________
PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list
APWG at lists.plantconservation.org
http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconserva
tion.org
Disclaimer
Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the
opinion of the individual posting the message.
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 05:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anita Bower <anita.bower at yahoo.com>
Subject: [APWG] Fw: Ecosystem restoration and alien species
eradication Re: Performance standards to get weed-free and 100%
native
To: apwg at lists.plantconservation.org
Message-ID: <439413.42886.qm at web45406.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Caveat:? I write as a layperson/amateur in the field of restoration.?
A well-coordinated erradication and restoration seems ideal.? However, some
of us?may happen to own a few acres (15 in my case) and want to increase
natives and decrease aliens, but do not have the interest, resources, time,
energy, knowledge to completely restore the property.? I am impressed with
what you are doing, but, do not intend to do the same.?
In addition to the limitations expressed above. eradication of aliens is
almost impossible here in southeast Pennsylvania.? Vines, such as japanese
honeysuckle and mile-a-minute are very difficult to erradicate, as are
multiflora rose and autumn olive.?
And, if eradicated, they come back, brought in on the wind or wing from
neighboring properties.
Anita Bower
West Nottingham, PA
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Wayne Tyson <landrest at cox.net>
To: apwg at lists.plantconservation.org
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 1:45:41 AM
Subject: [APWG] Ecosystem restoration and alien species eradication Re:
Performance standards to get weed-free and 100% native
Craig and all:
It appears that other subscribers aren't interested in this topic, but I
think we should continue it anyway, in the hopes that a few will get
interested, or that it will stimulate "lurkers" to think about it. While I'm
greatly looking forward to a possible visit to your project and discussing
the particulars with you in depth, I suggest that we owe it to the
subscribers of this list to iron out the issues that each of us has raised
one at a time. I'll be interested in your ideas about this and those of any
who care to join in.
Let's again revisit the issue of the importance of well-coordinated
restoration with eradication programs. You and I agree on this, I believe,
but perhaps there are others on the list who think that restoration is
unnecessary or irrelevant.
I hope that all who may not agree will post their ideas on this particular
subject and that the discussion sticks to this one subject before moving on
to digressions. I am very interested in where subscribers to this list stand
on this subject. The only way I know to interpret their silence is to
presume that they agree and see no need for discussion or that they don't
want to discuss it for other reasons.
WT
----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Dremann - Redwood City Seed
Company" <Craig at astreet.com>
To: <apwg at lists.plantconservation.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 12:23 PM
Subject: [APWG] Performance standards to get weed-free and 100% native
Dear Wayne and All,
I want to start my reply, to wax poetically about how nice walking through
a restored, a weed-free North American native ecosystem can be.
It is like visiting the Promised Land, a fairy tale land that people talk
about at annual wildland weed meetings--what would an area look like, that
they have been weeding for years or decades, if it was not only weed free,
but was 100% covered with the original pre-Columbian native ecosystem
understory?
The Shaw property is like a flawless 74-acre diamond, currently set in an
unending ocean of almost a 100% solid exotic understory of over 1,000
species of weeds, going 250 miles to the North, 200 miles to the East and
600 miles to the South, to the Mexican border.
===============
Wayne wrote:
Mowing before seed-set is a reasonably good practice in some contexts, it
may not always be practical (e.g., 2:1 slopes, etc.).
Reply:? 99% of lower elevation California is gentle slopes to fairly flat,
so the level to gently sloping wildlands should be converted first, while
there are still viable native seeds in the soil seedbank.
If the native seeds in the soil seed bank are already 35-100 years old, my
big concern is we will not get started in this conversion back to 100%
native cover process, in time to take advantage of the viable native seeds
that are lying dormant underneath the exotics, before they lose their
viability.
The clock is ticking for these native seeds lying dormant in the soil
seedbanks, waiting for us to pay attention to them within our and their
lifetimes, otherwise their lives will be lost forever.
===============
Wayne wrote:? Once a site has been dominated by weeds for a year or two,
not to mention decades or centuries, there is a considerable buildup of
dormant seeds in the soil's seed bank. Mowing can't get those, nor can it
get all of the standing crop.
Reply:? Mowing absolutely must to get the standing crop of weed seeds
before they ripen, for that year, and contrary to popular belief, you do
not have to be concerned about the dormant weed seeds in the soil.
What has been happening over the last decades or hundred years, is that
the percentage cover of the weeds tipped the balance, where the weed
densities were able to use allelopathic chemicals to suppress the
germination of the dormant native seeds in the soil.
See Journal of Chemical Ecology, especially Dr. Liu's 1994 and 1995 papers
on a method to study plant-produced allelopathic chemicals? as an
independent plant suppression system, separate from competition for water,
nutrients, sunlight, etc..
Where the concern should be focused, instead of the weed seed bank, is
managing and resurrecting the native seeds in the soil seedbank, and once
you cross a percentage native cover threshold, the natives will start
permanently suppressing the weeds still viable in the soil.
Those weed seeds will remain alive underneath the natives for a long, long
time, but once you get the right densities or the right local natives in
place, the natives will suppress the weed seeds from every germinating
again, the weed seeds will eventually die in the soil.? Weeds Rest in
Peace.
=================
Wayne wrote:
Then there's the issue of the thatch/chaff, post-mowing regrowth, and
other specifics that raise questions.
Reply:? Thatch is not a problem. Fortunately most of the weeds that cover
California are annuals, but for the perennials that might regrow,? is
where a little brushing of the cut surfaces with Roundup might be
necessary, like Pampas grass, Harding grass, etc.
=================
Wayne wrote:
Not only that, but the vital importance that such treated sites must
self-sustain rather than be continuously treated for eternity.
Reply: That is why for the Performance Standards that I am recommending
for restoration of California perennial native grassland habitats, on my
web page at http://www.ecoseeds.com/standards.html is that you need to
make the conversion from exotic cover, back to at least 95% native cover,
within 90 days or less, with no future maintenance.
If you have to weed after the 90th day, you need to do your small scale
test plots over, until you get the right native cover that stops the weeds
cold.? It is like a poker game, you have to lay down your Royal Flush of
local natives, to beat the local weeds.? You do not want to have to keep
playing hand after hand of weeding-poker to eternity.
The only maintenance that might have to be done after the 90th day, is to
add more local native species to increase the diversity, and to fill in
gaps where native plant understory families have been catastrophically
exterminated, like California and the West.
Sincerely,? Craig Dremann (650) 325-7333
_______________________________________________
PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list
APWG at lists.plantconservation.org
http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists.plantconserva
tion.org
Disclaimer
Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the
opinion of the individual posting the message.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www..avg.com
Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.55/2301 - Release Date: 08/13/09
18:16:00
_______________________________________________
PCA's Alien Plant Working Group mailing list
APWG at lists.plantconservation.org
http://lists.plantconservation.org/mailman/listinfo/apwg_lists..plantconserv
ation.org
Disclaimer
Any requests, advice or opinions posted to this list reflect ONLY the
opinion of the individual posting the message.
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